The Dark Spire

[Maxine MagicFox]

*Sigh* Ok, fine! I'll make a topic about. Post your (mis)adventures with this game here.

I'm learning slowly that the RNG is vicious in this game - and that it holds a factor in about EVERYTHING I do. So mad. I made my Mage a lvl 2 Mage earlier and only got like 4HP. But later on I found that my thief was getting 1 and my warrior got like 12 and I was like "huh?... wait... is this random too?! *reset, test* OH FUCK!" ... Spent the better part of half an hour getting the numbers I wanted for those and now feel cheated about my poor Mage who has the least HP of everyone now. Maybe I should create another one and try to replace her? :\

Gold = hard to come by. I'm hoping it will get better on higher levels. I've found the basement and the 2nd floor but still exploring first. I've gotten into the habit of saving after fights that turn out favorably so I can reset at any time another fight goes sour. I would normally feel "SO CHEATING!" but... o_O I think it's kinda mandatory in this game. My biggest fear is that I'll save with really low healths and not be able to get back out of the tower! >_<

[Riseatrance]

They hid weapon stats in this game wholulululu

[Twat]

I only want this game for the soundtrack. I'll just get that separately. Anything with RNG hates me so I won't bother. It especially annoys me when you can just reset to get the best result. Makes me say "Well why don't you just give the average result and get on with the show?"

[scy]

For things like this, games tend to have the chance of stat gain (and/or the amount) tied to a percentage so you do end with some average growth at the end. It is annoying that it allows for min/maxxers to potentially 100% characters (or the potential for very bad RNG to fuck you) but ... yeah.

For example, Fire Emblem uses this (stupidly I might add) for all their stat growth. Two numbers are rolled and averaged (which gives a skewed average but whatever) and if they are LOWER than the value of the stat growth, your stat increases.

For example, you roll a 31 and a 67 (Avg = 49) and have a STR Growth of 40. You will NOT gain a point of STR (49 > 40). However, due to this growth, after 38 levels (2-20, 2-20), you'll have roughly base + ~15.

Whether or not it's a good mechanic ... meh. Unless you get hardcore fucked (and/or the percentages aren't set stupidly), it isn't that big of a deal unless you care about MAX STATS POSSIBLE OMG.

ps, every RPG ever has RNG. Shit, you're pretty hard pressed to find many games that don't use an RNG somewhere.

[spoiler]Now as to whether or not Dark Spire uses the same system ... who knows yet. I'm too lazy to check but I'd wager it does based on the sound of things. Probably not as easily abusable as Fire Emblems (waste L/H rolls via mucking around with movement) so potentially pointless.[/spoiler]

[Twat]

I was more attacking severe RNG. I know almost all RPGs have RNG influence as it has caused suffering since the dawn of time. Fire Emblem can't really compare because it is more strategy than RPG. If you have units in the right place doing the right thing, even the worst luck can be accounted for and their lack of stat growth can be less irritating. There's also the job bonuses and the fact you have stat items and MOST CASES just two tiers of promotion... units in games with three tiers while the others only have two tend to be broken (AMELIA). Like I said, anything with RNG hates me. I'll have terrible stats end game or just funky units overall. At least with RPGs that aren't flat-out "take your turn then take some hits", I can rely on other tactics. I don't care about being perfect I just don't like constantly getting bad rolls.

[scy]

Bad stats can even make good tactics fail (or make bad tactics work). It's the difference between being two-shotted and three-shotted or that few % chance of crits or whatever. My "whee dumb" files of FE and my meticulous "OH GOD GET THIS FUCKING STR/SKL/SPD/LUK LEVEL" files are vastly different in terms of difficulty.

Personally, I can't recall any turn-based RPG that used this system AND had difficulty to make it annoying beyond early game. That or any turn-based RPG that doesn't have something resembling tactics as well (ohi, Persona 3/4) to compensate for stats. I mean, sure, you may have some amount of stats less than someone playing else in some category but ... it isn't competitive play. Who cares.

Hell, I'm playing The Last Remnant which leaves stat growth, skill growth, skill USE, and probably something else I'm missing to random chance*.

*[spoiler]Stat growth is tied to what you do (i.e., attack physically = +STR) but the rate it increases just seems to be tied to your Battle Rank compared to the enemy. Not much else. That said, the only thing you really need to do for stats is to pull enemies one-by-one (you can link to fight multiple groups at once; up to 7 groups on screen and an infinite in reserve to reinforce as they die) and make sure they are higher "level" than you (you get the command "Don't be afraid to die!" instead of "Attack!"). It's easy to manipulate fights so that you have the highest chance of stat growths.

Skill growth is through use but not some set amount; learning new skills is pretty much the same. Just use skills over and over until you eventually trigger learning it. This irks me infinitely more since I'm sitting here fighting things and purposefully doing 0 damage for like 100+ turns so I can try to learn more skills/change classes/SOMETHING.

Skill use in battle is completely fucking random. You give the order to "Attack with Combat Arts" and the group will use some portion of their allotted AP to attack with Physical Skills ... maybe. You are guaranteed with that command to have ONE person attack with skills (usually the leader) but how much they use or how many others attack is pretty much left to luck. Not as bad in the PC version since you can disable skills but in the 360 version ... ugh, dumb.

I'm tired of having 200+ AP and getting the option to use a SINGLE Combat Art that costs me ... 2 AP. [/spoiler]

Edit: Not to say I don't think complete RNG controlled stat growth is kind of dumb if there isn't some means to fix it IF the stats are significant enough to make the game broken due to bad RNG. Quite frankly, I've yet to play a game like that; there's almost always a fix.

Then again, I am pretty masochistic in my game playing and love games that challenge me ... and I have a weird view on what is actually hard.

[Twat]

I guess I just like fixed growth. I'd rather have the average rounded down than the chance of getting a cheap cut. Some may say it's strange for two soldiers to have the same stats but in most games the enemies are that way regardless. ^-^; Either way I handle my RNG blunders .

[Maxine MagicFox]

Normally I'd probably agree with you, Elys, but considering the type of game that this is... it just really does seem to work. It may seem like "oh so cheat" to continuously reset over and over - but I feel it's just part of the challenge. You're right, though: if more games were like this, I'd be throwing them up against the side of the wall and retiring myself from the gaming community.

But, I think Scy is right. There's probably a lot more to the mechanics that I'm completely missing. In all right, i'm probably too lazy to play this game the correct way. It really does seem like it's a game tailor made for Scy. Other folks over at GF, from the brief reads I've done, seem to be having trouble figuring a few things out.

[scy]

I'll see if I can get around to it but I doubt I'll do too much anytime soon.

[Kinokokao]

[Maxine MagicFox]

Think Etrian Odyssey, Kino, but think of it like this:
- No warp wires
- You don't make your own map
- You don't know where you ARE on your map until you cast a spell which shows your location for one moment - BUT your MP is PRECIOUS! So, keeping your location and route in your head is a MUST. I'm actually shocked at how well I'm able to do with this o_O;. Thank God it's on the DS which I can freely rotate the map if necessary.
- LOTS of dead ends
- Secrets are not obvious and... lead to more dead ends
- I found a door that actually had a puzzle attached to it so there's probably more puzzles
- No leveling up
- You gain EP from fights and then outside the tower you have to figure out what you want to level up - if you have enough, and then it randomly picks how MUCH it levels you up. (Note: though the guys at GF have put in the official say - maybe the first two levels you should try to reload and try for higher HP gains - because game start is a bitch like in EO-, but after that the system balances itself out. If you get 1HP rise for one level up, the next level up has higher chances of being a much higher level up. So, don't let his deter you.)
- No FOEs but the RNG system can sometimes make it seem like your fighting one or make it seem like your fighting a lvl1 monster.
-And a general sense of "what the fuck am I doing" with very little sense of accomplishment half the time except that after you have made it back out of the tower you wanna scream "I'M STILL ALIVE!!"


... ^_^ I love this game!
I'd be hard pressed to say which game was harder. I think they are about the same, but, then again, I've only JUST finished searching all(?) of floor 1 and am debating on whether I should conquer floor 2 or the basement.

Kino, I wouldn't get it if you like games that hold your hand. It's not the cutesy stuff you get in EO.... not that I would have ever thought EO holds your hand, but there's a massive gap between it and this one.

Edit: So far, probably my MOST FAVORITE thing of all, Kino, is on one floor, you go through a secret passage and it's PITCH BLACK. The music is tuned down and you have to listen to your character bumping into walls and stuff to figure out which way you are going and what's in front of you. XD HOLY SHIT it was fun!

What I suggest Kino: look up some youtube movies. There were some great reviews that I saw the other day when I was searching for the answer to a question. I'd decide pretty quickly, though. Many people are voicing complaints about being unable to obtain a copy.

Questions for anyone:
"Important Item"
[spoiler]I didn't get it... do I need it? The guy felt "phony" and I got a distinct impression of the Squirrel-Warp-Wire thief. Now I'm wondering if that was a mistake.[/spoiler]

Doll on Floor 1
[spoiler]I smashed it and got a "Thank You". ... Anyone know the point of this?[/spoiler]

I hope someone answers these questions.

[ZetaBladeX13]

[X-grunger]

[Maxine MagicFox]

A valuable tip that I learned that makes finding secrets a little easier - when you are "done" with the map of a floor - there will be NO blank/black spots. In other words: if there's a small room-size black hole in a map, chances are you missed a secret door somewhere in a surrounding wall.

[Twat]