Golden Deer Pub Community Forums

it is human nature that the most unreasonable will always be the loudest.

THAT'S NOT TRUE ABOUT US CHRISTIANS

HEATHEN

So I was talking with some women about my parents' age at church today, and it was brought up that I was going to be making some banana bread with friends later that afternoon. One of the ladies asked me when I had started baking. It was fairly clear that she was asking the question because I was male.

Erm...but you must understand the expectation is for women to bake, not for men to not bake.

Thank you for pointing out how the question is sexist, Noodles.

It kind of seems to go around and around, though. Why aren't you allowed to bake, Reynard?

Because it is considered a feminine activity and makes you seem weaker. It isn't fair on either side of the question. The woman who asked you that sounds possibly like one of those people who expects young men to do whatever she considers manly... but that also means she expects women to do only feminine things. It isn't fair that you can't do something you enjoy because it isn't considered gender appropriate for you, but it also isn't fair to expect all women to like/care about/be good at baking.

What I really don't understand in this thread is what there is to debate. Yes, there is sexism against men. Yes, there is sexism against women. I could give plenty of examples of both. Okay. Who is dismissing it? I don't see anyone doing that.

Noodles. He has been consistently dismissing sexism against men.

I don't think he is dismissing that it happens. Just trying to explain why men such as yourself would have a hard time making a case to complain when you happen to have such a long history of being able to do so many things that minority groups have been denied.

What he's been saying comes down to: "oh I'm sure it exists, but it's not really an issue," i.e. he is dismissing it. And I think that this is the wrong attitude to take. Sexism against men and against women are not different problems. They are the same problem whose symptoms are (historically and currently) worse for women. If you ignore half of the problem, then you don't fix the problem. Women should not be expected to bake. Men should not be expected to not bake. Each expectation engenders the other (pun unintended).

Equally speaking, some of the historical things that men have been able to do, that women haven't been able to do also extend to more than just the gender based roles but also class based. Outside of that, in many countries (including England) up until recently it was illegal to be gay and the law only criminalised males, not females. If you were a gay woman, you wouldn't be punished, but a gay man would be sent to prison or worse.

Equally speaking, until fairly recently in the UK, only rich, male, land owners could vote. The majority of this board wouldn't've been allowed - that's not just a gender issue, that's a wider social issue.

But to this very day, there is sexism against men on a might scale and it's seen as socially acceptable and not a big deal - it's OK to call men fat as they can handle it, men should love sports, men should love sex, men should watch porn, men shouldn't bring children up, men shouldn't like romance, men shouldn't watch period dramas, men only like action films, men should be big and muscley, men should provide for the family, the man should discipline the child, the man should do the majority of the driving, a man should pay for the first date, a man shouldn't go home early and look after the kids - that's a woman's job, men are dirty, men are rapists, men are paedophiles, men must do the DIY, men should fix things, males only play Xbox 360 and don't pay their other halves enough attention, men shouldn't cry and I could go on and on, yet the vast majority of these are accepted social norms. Yet, if one thing is said about women, it's immediately outrageous and incorrect and the vocal feminist minority start shouting and screaming.

Sexual discrimination is an issue for men, it's just seen as one as it's not hit many men how discriminatory life is towards them yet. There's also this huge issue that women always fall back to - the past. It's totally fine to lust after a male who's half naked on TV because it wasn't OK for women to complain against rape 50 years ago. Well, in the most harshest of terms - that's in the fucking past. I hate the fact that reparations are being paid to former slaves, I hate the fact that our current governments issue apologies to things that happened 50, 100 or even 200 years ago. It's not current policy and it's in the past. I don't hear Germany issuing apologies for WWII on a regular basis and the reparations paid were immediate and part of an agreement at the time.

Anyway, I'm ranting now but the main point is, it's not socially acceptable to consider discrimination against men as an issue - unless you're a minority male and even then it's still not as big of a deal as it is for a minority woman.

While I agree with all of Archaic's points, I think there's a subtle difference between sexist stereotyping and discrimination. I get made fun of for not being a typical male all the time, but then I think of my friend. He recently went through a divorce, and the male judge gave custody of his five year old child to his ex. Even though my friend has a steady job and the ex is on welfare. Just because of the fact the courts have historically supported the notion that a child needs their mother more than their father.

The problem with stereotypes - which exist for a reason, is that they tend to lead to discrimination when questioned. Even the above baking example shows discrimination, even if it was minor and not meant in an offensive way.

There have been baking-related social events that I have not been able to attend because I am male. One I was not invited to because they didn't think I would be interested (I have specifically been told this was because I am a guy), and the other I was forbidden from for being male (although this was only the stated reason and might not have been the real one).