Golden Deer Pub Community Forums

A very simple question:

When the individual and the "community" come into conflict (i.e. when their interests are not held in common), which takes priority and why?

Is the "life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness" of the individual more important, or communal values and interests? If an individual fails to comply with what is commonly understood to be for the "greater good," should he be forced to? Should an innocent person's home be seized, or should his life be taken, etc. for the sake of the community without his consent if it comes to that?

I have deliberately made the question broad. We will see where discussion takes us.

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I will briefly state my own perspective. I believe that, with very few exceptions, individual rights (that is, life, liberty, and property) take priority over any "community" interests, because the community is a non-entity without individuals, from whom it attains its legitimacy.

This does not mean that individuals should not be punished for their crimes; indeed, the desire to punish comes from an innate disgust for people violating each others' rights. What it means is that the innocent (that is, people who have violated no one else's rights) always have some level of supremacy and any and all action taken against them, even when it is perceived to be for the greater good, is wrong.

I will expound on this as people post in this thread, since I do not want to bog down the first post.

"life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness"

This has been twisted thru the years. It is SUPPOSED to be "life, liberty, and the puesuit of PROPERTY"...just sayin

There isn't a choice to make if that's how you ask the question.

If it goes against your self interest then naturally wouldn't have a part of it. Then they'll basically beat and rob you of whatever they want whether it be possessions or morals. They'll guilt you with their philosophy saying how wicked you are for not giving up your well being for your neighbor.

There are no community interests without a community of people acting on self interests. Otherwise people wouldn't know what they want, would they? And if you're not working for your own self interest, does that give you the right to decide what's right for your neighbor?

The entire dogma of "the common good" is flawed, yet it is beaten into us since early childhood. It's a scarecrow that makes us deny ourselves. It's a machine that can only create a feeling of resentment.

Depends. Does the individual help PLA? Is PLA common? What's best for PLA? :3

eharper256 speaks a lot of sense.

To the 'tax is theft' people out there I sometimes ask if they would willingly give up the use of roads, schools, hospitals, clean water, security from fire and theft etc. They always say "Yes!" "I'd gladly give all that up, protect my family with a baseball bat/gun, educate my own kids, be entirely self-sufficient, pay the market rate for..." etc. etc.
So why don't they?
"It's not feasible because the government blah de blah."
"The market would... but the government blah de blah."
Weak excuses for models built on ideals that ignore so much and focus on so little.

Balance. Moderate your thinking. 'Moderate' meaning 'critically assess' not 'dilute'. Work out why things are the way they are and don't attribute everything to 'them' enforcing a broken system. You, me, all of us are part and product of the systems we live through.

A few years, or even months, in countries where there is no welfare net at all can be quite enlightening. The only reason people survive at all is because of strong communities and support networks, and the people that don't have them live in utter poverty and die young. 'The market' is a woefully inadequate mechanism for providing basics like water, housing, education, transport.

Sorry, bit of a tangential rant there.

To answer the original post, I'm all for individual freedom over communal security and laws and almost invariably tend to prefer individual values over communal ones. A hedonist to the core, I believe that as long as I cause no harm to others ('harm to others' having a very broad and generous meaning) I should be able to do whatever I damn well please.

However, I also appreciate that I was born to and continue to live a life of incredible privilege, largely thanks to all the various communities that have supported me and enabled me to live such a fulfilling life so far.