Age of Child Pornography

[Maxine MagicFox]

[Maxine MagicFox]

[madonna]

[Hanyou]

Max, it's taken me all day to reply, so obviously you're not that rusty. XP I won't quote you much...I started by quoting your points, but then found it easier to just reply to organize things differently. I hope that's alright--I still address most of what you brought up.

As to whether "there is nothing wrong with hentai or porn," that may be for a wholly different topic, but I think reasonable people can disagree on the issue. I haven't stated my exact position on it because I'm not sure yet. As for the exceptions, it's worth noting that you have placed limits on it at all, since too few sites do. I haven't asked to see the content--if I did, I could fairly be called a hypocrite--and I haven't seen the fanfic, so I don't know what I'm arguing against here. Forgive my disadvantage in this area, and correct me if I make any mistakes.

The members-only status is interesting, to say the least, but it doesn't change the fact that some people may join primarily for the hentai, and that changes the purpose of your site, regardless of the amount of content. That's precisely what I meant by diluting the purpose. You seem to have outlined the site's position when you said there was "nothing wrong" with hosting that content--fine, but keep in mind that that is still something of an endorsement.

However, you have told me not to focus on the NSFW section in general. I'll drop it there. There is one slightly off-topic point I'd like to address, because, while it's an aside and it doesn't affect my main argument regarding child pornography, I think you've assumed a bit too much.

There is a popular straw man argument that has taken hold since the sexual liberation that those who do not advocate this liberation are prudes or somehow hate sex. I wouldn't refute that sex is an absolutely beautiful thing, under certain circumstances. It is the single most intimate activity that two people can share, and I fully advocate emotional and even spiritual investment in the activity. There is nothing wrong with it. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the utility of sex (propagation of the race) can be secondary to the principles which drive proper intercourse--mutual respect, self-sacrifice, and even intelligence. I realize that even a hint that something such as "proper" sexuality exists is seen as an incorrect view. Suffice to say, promiscuity is not the same as fidelity. We can at least agree on that, and then decide whether one is proper and another improper, or whether they are both proper, etc.

The trouble is the celebration of voyeurism, which, since the sexual liberation of the 1960's, has become something of a standard. Alfred Kinsey did not sow the seeds--he dropped an atom bomb of hedonism into popular opinion of sexuality at the time. Although existing mores also had multiple problems (some taboos about sexual activities were unfounded) the whole point of sex became further muddled by it all. Regardless of whether sex is "beautiful" or not, there is a distinction between advocacy of sexual activity and advocacy of nearly unbridled, or at least less limited, sexuality. I do not find hedonism, in any form, something to celebrate. That is a point with which you may not agree, and if that's the case, then we'll have to agree to disagree. But I would like to point out that blanket use of the term "sex" to describe both proper and improper sexuality (the latter of which could even include incest, if you stretched the original term enough!) makes it easy to misrepresent the opposition's opinion on this issue, much as saying, for example, that both illegal and legal immigrants are "immigrants." Technically true, but rhetorically unfair. At the very least, the strength of the connection between different types of sex or immigration would have to be further developed before they could be tied together for the purpose of argument like that, especially when the argument originally entails a subset of that larger group. Finer terms are needed.

In light of this, I have not said that "discussing sex" was the same as advocating racism--and if I had advanced that idea, then I have just done something similar to endorsing racism in the above paragraph. Note the context: even though the whole post regarded all NSFW content, that specific part of it addressed child pornography. Let me further develop my point, because I was ambiguous. A fictional portrayal (in writing) of a sexual act involving minors may or may not be, depending on the context (and once again, I plead ignorance as to this specific case) as reprehensible as advocacy of racism. If it is an attempt at erotica, then the medium--words--means it is not as severe as really engaging in the act, but it is equivalent to my analogy. If it makes an attempt at moral neutrality, then it may be equated with fictional portrayal of racism; but again, depending on the severity and context, it may still be questionable by virtue of the fact that it is too explicit or is too close to advocacy. Writing, though it may have initiated the debate, is not as much of a concern to me as drawings.

I have more experience with hentai than I'd like to, and I wonder how the blanket statement that it is beautiful could truly apply. There's guro, there's rape, there's incest...need I go on? It does get worse. None of these activities are "beautiful," and I fail to see how fictional representations of them intended to arouse are beautiful either. The fact that some studios draw good art and couch the sexual encounters between their characters in a well-told storyline does not diminish the point of, for example, eroge visual novels. And once again, now that we're making the distinction, it doesn't excuse the depiction of children in such situations. Drawings, therefore, are probably not as "contextual" as writings are; hentai's purpose is expressly sexual, and when minors are involved, it may add another dimension to it all. I do not see how this is morally laudable in the least. One may reasonably argue it's "not bad," but how can pornography involving children be a good, or beautiful, thing? I am sure that is not the point you were advancing.

As for UK law, most internet sources I've found seem to say the age is 16 in that country, which would still exceed the age 15 limit you imposed. However, I also ran into this: The Sexual Offenses Act of 2003, which modified the pre-existing statute.[1] It seems the laws governing child pornography in the UK are no different than those in the US in regards to age--the cutoff point is still age 18. I am completely unfamiliar with foreign law; if someone would like to correct me, feel free.

So if the child pornography rubric is to be applied to hentai on this site, why not apply the existing UK/US one?

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[1]: (more specifically, you can visit to see the exact statute I'm talking about.)

[madonna]

[Maxine MagicFox]

[madonna]

[Vapour Trail]

[Maxine MagicFox]

[madonna]

[Kinokokao]

Whatever scholarly resources you care to reference I will likely have full access to. I did a little searching myself to find some sex studies related specifically to pornography.

Pornography, Erotica, and Attitudes toward Women: The Effects of Repeated Exposure
Vernon R. Padgett, Jo Ann Brislin-Slutz and James A. Neal
The Journal of Sex Research, Vol. 26, No. 4 (Nov., 1989), pp. 479-491

This study compared pornography viewing and attitudes toward women. Highlights:

Patrons of the adult theater, who viewed more pornography, had more favorable attitudes toward women than male or female college students.

After Denmark repealed all censorship laws, there was a marked decrease in sex crimes, including rape, and the decline continued over the following years (Donnerstein, Linz, & Penrod, 1987, pp. 61-65; Kutchinsky, 1973).

In each study, exposure to pornography was associated with lessened negative behavior towards women. Perhaps pornography may be socially beneficial, because it provides a way to satisfy needs through "fantasy-induced masturbation and (it helps) to avoid acting out fantasies with innocent victims" (Crepault, 1972).

in Japan, there are 2.4 reported rapes per 100,000 population; U.S. incidence is more than 14 times higher <--despite Japan having less restricted pornography laws and higher incidences of violent/rape pornography.

However, as this study and numerous others that I looked at pointed out, the research is extremely conflicting. Some researchers find that in a laboratory setting viewing violent pornography does indeed lead to an increase in rape fantasy -- however, others have found completely opposite results.

I haven't the time tonight to do a more thorough search for articles more specific to our debate. Give a citation of whatever PDFs you like; I have the ability to copy and paste from them. I'd rather you not link to the PDFs directly since that forces me to download them. I'll look them up on JSTOR/whatever.

[Vapour Trail]

[madonna]

[Vapour Trail]

[madonna]