Age of Consent

[Kinokokao]

How do we look at our own morality in context with the historical tradition of sexualizing young adults? That is to say, the "child" with a mature body. "Jail bait" to put it crudely.

You have the strong tradition of pederast relationships in history, such as with the Dorian cultures (Athens, for example, or even Sparta*), to think about as well. Certainly a seventeen year old isn't necessarily all the more mature than an eighteen year old. And if both parties are fully consenting, can we really object?

One could argue, "But legally, they can't!" Very true. Under our legal code, anyone below the legal age of consent is judged completely unable to perform a sexual action of their own will. In the eyes of the law, minors are forbidden.

Certainly to sexualize pre-pubescent children is wrong. I'm sure most of you agree with that, even if you'd fight to the death to defend first amendment rights. Raping a 7 year old is universally condemned, and rightly so.

Historically, a girl became a woman at her menarche regardless of age. Ottoman Palestine court records are full of examples of Khiyar al-bulugh, the "option of puberty" that unwilling child-brides could exercise to get annulments. The moment their menses struck, the teens had to announce in front of male witnesses the fact. The men could then testify in court and the annulment be granted.
While child-brides were fairly rare in history and relegated mostly to the wealthy or powerful, they were certainly common enough across the globe. Western European nobility often arranged marriages very young to secure alliances and trade lands. Marie Antoinette and Eleanor of Aquitane were both 15 at their marriages, although Marie Antoinette's went unconsummated for twelve years.
Certainly others of means arranged marriages even younger. Marie Antoinette was engaged at age 12, for example. Sometimes the couple would marry but live apart, or become betrothed and wait until maturity for actual marital relations.

The vast majority of the population, however, often put off marriage until their mid to late twenties. Peasants often waited until they inherited or were financially stable, so to speak. Merchants and the like followed similar age patterns. Certainly they engaged in sexual acts much earlier. The shotgun wedding isn't new, after all.

We know that the average age of girl's puberty plummeted between the 1900s and 1960s. At the turn of the century, the average was 17. The rate of decrease has slowed, but the average age of menarche in the U.S. is now only 12.5 years old.^

12 years old.

The youngest recorded mother, BTW, is only 5 years old. (Her father raped her.)

So, clearly the age of menarche can no longer be considered an indicator of sexual maturity. In this light, maybe it's a good thing we have a legal age.

*long story, but they at least instituted a master-student tutelage in both military and political fields. If they weren't all lovers, at least some were.
^only 10% of girls have their period before age 11, but 90% have theirs before 13. I beat the odds at 15. And it's technically, 12.47 but I rounded

(Also, my sources are:
PDF: Minor Marriages and Khiyar al-Bulugh in Ottoman Palestine: A Note on Women's Strategies in a Patriarchal Society by Mahmoud Yazbak. Islamic Law and Society, Vol 9 No. 3 (2002) p. 386-409
Various sources for historical figures, all facts read in books somewhere on my many shelves, but quickly confirmed with Wikipedia.
Menarche data also read previously in books and scholarly articles, but I'm lazy and googled for the specifics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menarche
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_of_Aquitaine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Antoinette

[matt]

Adulthood begins at age 12 in women and 13 in men, however the key issue about child pornography and relationships/marriage is twofold:

1. Is the man looking at the porn a lot older than the women in the porn?

2. Is the boy looking at the porn of the same age as the underage girls in the porn?

This applies to marriage or sexual relationships too. Except perhaps with certain eccentric or charming personalities, a man is expected to marry a woman younger than him, but not that much younger. He's expected to be interested in somewhat younger girls, but certainly not prepubescent (no pubic hair, widening of hips).

Not convinced that breast size is indicative of age.

If the youngest person at Etrian Odyssey Forums is 15, and ages are not something that people make up willy-nilly, then there shouldn't be any art or photographs of people under the age of 13 at this site, and no one who is over the age of 16 looking at it, which includes probably almost everyone here.

When I was a kid I tended to like older girls that had big breasts or seemed like women. I remember one time being at a friend's house looking at porn on his computer -- we had AOL accounts and this was about 1996 I guess, the year was -- and some of it was underage, and with the little girls it was obviously wrong, but with the girls that were my age at the time I thought "hmm, maybe this isn't wrong." since I was already thinking about girls my age in class, you know, this way.

So then it comes back to deeper issues of whether it's wrong in the first place to be sexualizing anyone and lusting after them, especially an inordinate amount of time spent on this.

[matt]

I said 12 and 13 begins adulthood. I tend to think of 16 as "being" adult. Not 18 or 21. And 17 and 19 are odd numbers. 15 sounds too young.

[matt]

There's an age range of what a man should be interested in. I think it works on a bell curve. I was going to say that if you're 30 don't date below 24, and if you're 40 stick to girls over 30, and things like that, but then maybe it can be charted more on the basis of percentages and a bell curve diagram, where the age compatibility is closer together when you're younger (when you're 15 you tend to date 15 year olds) and then when you're 24 you tend to be intersted in girls of the ages of 19 through 26, let's say. Anyway, what was this thread about? Consent? Oh, who cares about consent. That should only be an issue where it regards rape.


Also another thing with the bell curve would be that how long are you expected to live? If your life expectancy is 80, and you're American or British or French, then you may be expected to marry 2 or 3 times, and each time carries with it a bit of an adjustment in the rules.

Wish I hadn't of seen that Jack Nicholson / Diane Keaton movie..

[Maxine MagicFox]

1 strike against you, matt, for double posting. You could have easily editted your first post.

Another strike against you for going off topic in the two posts that I deleted. How a girl walks has nothing to do with the subject.

Another and it's a temporary ban.

Edit:

Come back this Saturday when you've matured.

[noodles]

I first masturbated at 10 years old, and I had been thinking about sex for a long time. I'm probably out of the ordinary, but it shows that kids aren't totally innocent and pure at those young ages. I think if adolescent people want to have sex, they ought to. I, personally, would rather wait until I'm in love with something (though part of me is a horny teenager that just wants to have fun), and one of my best friends is holding out until she's 18 despite her raging hormones, and I happen to find that very honorable. However, I believe she made a choice. And other choices included having sex. I think both are choices that should be available to anyone. It's true, kids around 13 are irresponsible, but that's why we have sex ed in elementary school. Parents should just have the talk with their kids at a lot younger age. That's what all the specialists say, too.

[madonna]

^The age at which you first start thinking about sex doesn't necessarily make you "mature" or ready to cope for the responsibility of sex.

[noodles]

Well yeah I said they were irresponsible, but I think more focused sex ed and talk with parents would compensate somewhat...

I really think sex shouldn't be as much of a taboo in our society as it is. Kids should be able to talk about it with parents without anyone freaking out. I....I don't know. You'd probably end up being right.

[ZetaBladeX13]

Am I the only one here who's sick of this topic? -_-;

[noodles]

I know where you're coming from, but I'm not particularly sick of this thread yet. I don't know how far we could go, though; these are age-old questions

[Maxine MagicFox]

[ZetaBladeX13]

[Archaic Sage]