Unconventional Power?

[eharper256]

Hi, I'm a n00b here, and only just recently picked up copies of both Etrian's, and have found them rather exhilarating in their difficulty. Evidently I enjoy the suffering...

In any case, since I'm a lunatic, I've decided to basically play both games side by side (well, I decided to do EOI first...got up to 7th Level of 2nd Stratum then I thought I'd start this too...and alternate between them...)

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But enough beating round the bush. What I'm here for is advice.

Basically, I thought that I wanted to totally avoid making a 'cookie cutter' party whilst still being effective. This means avoiding what GameFAQs believes to be the ultimate combo of RO/DH/WM/HX/GU, at least in part, as well as also trying to avoid the 'ultimate' skills, like the spamming of Revenge or Lvl 10 Mideraba, as well as using the 'less desirable' (apparently) classes of Landsknecht and Alchemist.

So yeah, a party that I both like and is effective. I care nothing for power-gaming, and I doubt I'll do the optional sub-bosses.

My party hence is:
Shana the Ronin / Galette the Landsknecht / Rin the Warmagi
Jimsey the Alchemist / Sakura the Hexxer

The idea is work off combos. Galette will be focusing on Chasers and high speed. Jimsey and Shana will both provide the elemental attacks to chase. Shana will also use the Arm-Bind skill, which partially makes up for no DH. Next up, Sakura focuses on Torpor initially, and Rin gets SleepCut (after getting Cure, obviously). Then, Sakura moves onto to picking up Evil Eye/ Suicide while Rin develops Salve. And so on and so forth.

So, will these things all work together? Or do peoples have better advice?

I've done the initial mapping quest with the above and they seem to be going fine. Amazingly, I survived the Venomflies attack with relatively little problem. Sakura is dead weight at the moment, since she had 3 points straight into Curses, since I'm rushing to Torpor, but soon enough I'll benefit from that high hit chance (evil cackle).

If entirely neccessary, I'll train up Lillith the Dark Hunter, Arthuria the Protector, or Natalya the Gunner as replacements. They're all hanging around being useless in the guild right now. Though they'll probably find use as escorts for the 'Snatching' team for Take points.

EDIT: Some other questions?

1. Is it now wise to grab only 1 point in Alchemist spells and then develop TP Up / TEC Up to 5 or max before continuing spell development? Since the TP costs are higher and all, that sounded a good idea, especially since I can grab Analysis on the way.
2. Is my plan for SleepCut/TerrorCut/CurseCut with Torpor/EvilEye/Corruption reasonable? And can I still have time for the WM to develop Salve and the HX to develop Suicide?
3. Am I shooting myself in the foot (LOL) by not having a Gunner? The low speed and the fact that I like Alchemists puts me off a bit.
4. Feasable to develop Overhead and Mid stance skills together for Ronin? I'd like the binding cut, the fire cut (all), the volt cut (all), and if possible, the fast cut.
5. Has All-Slash been nerfed from EOI? What about TornadoSlash?

Thanks for your time!

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Also, so this topic isn't totally redundant, please discuss your less than 'conventional' parties that worked. I'd be genuinely interested in hearing about them too.

[Maxine MagicFox]

I'm probably the best person you want to talk to in terms of "unconventional" because - I just didn't give a damn and never paid attention to "best abilities" (... an oddity considering I'm the webmaster here *sigh*). In terms of learning what's best for each characters, Scy and others will no doubt be more than happy to answer these questions.

My tea the entire game through was



And the best advice I can give you with these games, in my opinion, is that the games are designed so that you can play with ANY party member with ANY combination and get through the game. If someone isn't to your liking, trade them out or re-trade them back in at a later time. ^_^ If you even want to know, I had my party for EOII created before the game even came out, along with the personalities I wanted them to have as I went through the game.

There, that's my 2cents. Someone will be along to answer the other questions that go over my head.


Oh and welcome to the forums! Feel free to introduce yourself in the in the Discussion Forum.

[Kinokokao]

First off, welcome!

I don't have any advice for you, sadly.I just know my own party works well, and it's:

Protector/Ronin
Survivalist/Medic/Gunner

Perhaps that is unconventional? XD I don't know. I'm aware of the "ultimate skills" and such, but, like you, I avoid them. I'm on my first play through (I just reached lvl 70 and have started retiring and re-leveling my characters... bit of a mistake in retrospect because it's taking foreverZ) Anyway, this is actually my third party configuration. I originally had:

Landsknecht/Ronin/Protector
Medic/Gunner

Then I replaced the Landsknecht with a Beast, and then finally a Survivalist. I like my Gunner; never found the speed a problem. Since you have an Alchemist, though, you probably don't need a Gunner.

Goodluck and nice to meet you ^_^

[scy]

[ZetaBladeX13]

Welcome!

Also, you won some brownie points with me because you (presumably) noticed that one of the female Ronin looks slightly similar to Shana XD

Just for the record, I beat both games (not including optional bosses) with my:

L/L/P
M/A

Party.

btw, In the first EO, I never used Immunize, chaser skills, or Anti-[insert element here] until I decided to tackle the optional bosses (which is when I learned that they were useful) XD

[Kinokokao]

<3!

Scy, you're the best.

For what it's worth, your party set up is a solid one and certainly effective. I've taken much of your advice (especially for Ronin; I use a Mideraba build) I agree with Maxine that the great part of the EO series is that your party is build is just so flexible. Conceivably you could run an entire Alchemist party, if you so desired! The party customization is what makes the series so great.

[Maxine MagicFox]

Why is it Scy always makes me feel like I'm a bad EO-site webmaster? He always answers these questions so thoroughly. *Sigh* I guess at least I should be proud that I gave people a place where they can meet Scy and talk about this stuff.

But, Scy, as much as you put down the Alchemist, I still feel that he's quite a bit better than the Gunner - especially if you are choosing to ignore "best build" cheats.

Meh, I need to pick up my game again. *walks off* Okay, tomorrow I'm putting myself on a "My World, My Way" ban and playing EOII!

[ZetaBladeX13]

[scy]

If you don't use Ricochet then you come down to the argument of which is better: Gunner wins out in Physical Damage and has cheaper Elemental shots whilst Alchemist has better Elemental Damage at the expense of TP. I haven't tested it in awhile but I do believe the Shots are a little inferior to Fire/Ice/Volt and the Riskshots are slightly worse than Flame/Freeze/Thunder assuming both on equal ground (i.e., maxed Flame versus maxed Riskfire with Agneyastra equipped). Megido beats out everything but Ricochet for damage between the two.

Snipe serves a neat purpose of quick, cheap damage. Wildshot, albeit terrible, is leaps and bounds better than the Physical Spells for all-target Physical.

What it comes down to is this:

Alchemist:
+ Better (i.e., higher) Elemental Damage
+ Megido hits for a lot?
- TP WHORE

Gunner (sans Richochet):
+ Cheaper Elemental Damage
+ Medishot serves as a decent group Status Restore (lacks Petrify)
+ Can deal damage without using TP.
Edit: + JACK FROST GUNNER
- Outside of Ricochet, has no good single-target damage (Stunshot is next best, ignoring Risk shots, at 200% ... and even the Elemental Shots [220%] beat it).

I'd mention the Gunner is slow but the Alchemist is actually slower (Staves have a lower SPD Modifier and Gunner has better SPD Multiplier on skills to make up for the lower AGI Growth) so ... who knows?

They both serve as a back-row Elemental Damage source; the Gunner has cheaper but more usable ones whilst the Alchemist has stronger that sucks up TP (if you spend the points on them; if you don't, the Gunner naturally scales with their Weapon upgrades). Gunner has better Physical Damage output and has a better damaging attack via Ricochet; they can also provide damage without expending TP (...normal attacks).

Edit: And yes, I'm a robot.

[ZetaBladeX13]

See what I mean?


^ Numberman

He's unstoppable XD

[eharper256]

Wow, such a flurry of replies! I'm honoured to meet you all, and I'll try to respond to each of the posters in order.

MaxineMagicfox:
Thanks for the welcome. I'm glad I'm not the only one who likes to whip up personalities for my RPG team characters when they're not given any themselves.

Kinokokao:
Your final party highly resembles my EOI party, except switch the Gunner for Alchemist and Ronin for DHunter.

I guess I should have said that too... I wanted a party somewhat different to my EOI party as well when I built this. That was:
Sophia the Landsknecht / Luvia the Dark Hunter / Arthuria the Protector
Mariya the Medic / Jimsey the Alchemist

Scy:
Ah, you're THE Scy from the same boards? I didn't realise you're the same one, and also didn't realise you came up with that party. No offence meant, of course.

THANKYOU very much for those detailed builds. I kinda feel guilty now for levelling up to 7 whilst at work today.
So you know, currently my characters are at:

Shana, the Black Haired Female Ronin
[spoiler]HP Up 1
Overhead 5
Seigan 1
Orochi 2

I've just stopped Overhead development now to start on Seigan. Since it IS Shana, I thought I HAD to get the fiery sword first of all. Just a shame theres no 'flaming wings' skills going here to complete the likeness. I'm glad to see she's recognised!
In retrospect, looking at the stats FAQ, the binding arm strike seems at best dubious until level 8 or so.

My thoughts:
HP Up 10
STR Up 10
TP Up 6
Clarity 5
Overhead 7
Seigen 7
Iai 1
Orochi 5
Kienzan 5
Raizuki 5
Minakata 5
Kubiuchi 5[/spoiler]

Question: Is Kubiuchi worth it? I mean, 56% chance for insta-kill is dirty, but I assume bosses and FOEs have like -100% chance or something (except to DH Climax, as has been noted on GameFAQs). Nevertheless, its still worth it if works on average enemies. Basically, I'm asking whether its still handy for, say, late stratum run of the mill baddies?

If NO, then I guess I might pick up Koteuchi to 5 instead, though it won't be too effective.

Also, I'm sure I saw somewhere that the Ronin had a skill called Tsubame-Gaeshi in the Japanese version. Which one has this been renamed to, if anyone knows?

I only ask because Tsubame Gaeshi (ala. Swallow Cutter) is awesome and win. At least it is in Fate/Stay Night...anyway...heh...

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Galette, the Redhead Female Landsknecht
[spoiler]AGI Up 1
Swords 5
Axes 2
HyperCut 1

I originally picked up Allslash for her. (oh shi-, it really does seem cack nowadays) But, thankfully, I discovered that Resting a Level 5 or less character resets the skill points without actually docking the levels. Damn helpful!!!
I might well take your advice and pick up 1 point in Tornado for mob control.
If anyone cares, she's based on the Knight Princess Galette from Shiina Dark.

My thoughts:
HP Up 10
TP Up 10
AGI Up 1
Swords 5
Axes 5
Counter 5
Tornado 10
HyperCut 5
Blazer 5
Freezer 5
Shocker 5
War Cry (Maybe?) 5
[/spoiler]
I might drop Freezer with a Rest after the bosses that are weak to Ice are taken down. Is War Cry worth it? And does it stack with Warmight?

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Rin, the Black haired Female WarMage
[spoiler]HP Up 1
TP Up 1
STR Up 3
War Edge 2
War Lore 1
Cure 1

Her Cure 1 is perfectly fine for the moment, it still heals about 70% of a characters health for a paltry 3 TP, which is awesome for survivability. I'm nearly to sleepcut (2 more levels...), then I'll go back and start developing Salve (by which time it'll probably become neccessary to upgrade her healing prowess anyway).
And yes, she's supposed to be Rin from Fate/Stay Night (Sakura, too).

My thoughts:
HP Up 10
TP Up 7
STR Up 6
War Edge 10
War Lore 7
SleepCut 10
FearCut 1 (not for damage, just leech)
CurseCut 1 (as FearCut)
Cure I 3
Cure III 3
Salve 5
Warmight 5
Transfer 5[/spoiler]

Is Salve I at 5 going to be sufficient for late game? 91 base sounds alot, but then it probably isn't later. If it isn't I'll have to Rest her, grabbing Cure II up to 4, Salve II up to 5, and cranking an extra couple into TP Up, probably.

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Jimsey, the Blonde Male Alchemist
[spoiler]TP Up 4
TEC Up 1
Fire Up 1
Volt Up 1
Fire 1
Volt 1

His damage is way above the rest at the moment when he uses a skill but he fails in melee, much like my Alchemist of old. He is also myself. The hair actually isn't too far off that characters if I've not had it cut in a while (LOL).

My thoughts:
TP Up 10
TEC Up 10
Analysis 5
Fire Up 1
Ice Up 1
Shock Up 5
Fire 10
Ice 5
Shock 10
Thor 5
Meggido 5
Scavenge 5[/spoiler]

According to the numbers, a Level 10 basic spell is roughly equivalent to a level 8 second tier spell, but for 6 TP less (12 TP less than Lvl 10 second tier). Though, admittedly, one does lose out on the potential for 280% damage, which is a bit a kick in the rear. However, saving 12 TP per cast is immensely helpful.

Moreover, I can save Skillpoints that would otherwise be eaten by the 'Up' skills. Which allows me to dip into Thor (more line enemies are weak to it, so its the best choice of the three) and also pick up Scavenge for nice utility.

Also, not to be nitpicky, but your build doesn't include analysis, but its needed for Meggido, isn't it? Which puts that build at 80 points? Or am I totally mistaken?

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Sakura, the Purple haired [s]Loli[/s] Hexxer
[spoiler]TP Up 1
Curses 3
Torpor MASTER (5)

WELL...her progress so far has been simple, LOL. Torpor has just suddenly become mighty at level 5. However, she only gets 5 uses of it at the moment T_T. I'll build TP Up to about 5 before carrying on down the Evil Eye and Suicide route, I guess.

My thoughts:
TP Up 10
LUK Up 5
Curses 6
Torpor 5
Corrupt 5
Evil Eye 5
Suicide 5
Either Paralyse 5/Blinding 5 ~or~ Abdomen 10
Either Leaden 10 ~or~ Poison 10[/spoiler]

I assume Poison vastly loses potency over time, right? If so, then I'll have Leaden to help with party speed. Does Paralyse actually work with any given frequency on FOE's/Bosses? What about Blinding; does it actually sufficiently reduce Accuracy to be worth it? If the answers to both (or even one) are NO, then I'll likely have Abdomen for its ability to disable nasty boss skills.

Finally, Suicide sounds like a great deal; to have a boss slap itself 3 times in a row. But does it work as advertised on the tin?

Again, cheers for all your help.

ZetaBladeX13:
Yeah, its quite a good doppleganger of her, ne? Even down to the bandages (before she contracts with Alastor). Though she never wears a Miko's Hakama. Oh well.

Phew...that was alot of typing...

[Kimiko]

Hi Ehar! Welcome to ItL

You might want to add spoiler tags to those long lists. Not because they're spoilerish, but to keep the thread readable without a lot of scrolling.

I too picked my teams the way I liked them and not because they were numerically superior. In both games I had a Troubadour and Survivalist, because I like archers, and the wackiness (spooniness?) of having a bard in the team. In EO1 I completed that with Alchemist (for elemental attacks), Medic (obvious) and Landsknecht (for basic damage). In EO2, Gunner (alternative to Alchemist), WarMagus (alternative to Medic) and DarkHunter (looked cool). I later replaced the DH with a Ronin for more damage, and the WM with a Medic for better healing. I also never really considered which spells/attacks were best numerically. Just picked what seemed cool or useful. And it worked. I completed both games (except for the bonus content). Like Kino said, the Etrian Odysseys seem to be designed to be playable with any reasonably diverse team.

[eharper256]

[Kimiko]

[Maxine MagicFox]