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Golden Deer Pub Community Forums • What anime are you currently watching? - Page 64
Page 64 of 182

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:41 am
by scy
Well...
[spoiler]To be honest, we don't know for certain about this. For all we know, Bern-chan and λδ are the two playing the game and Meta-Battler and Beato are their pieces as well. However, they cannot change reality without it being known*. If there exists 5 Keys, they cannot make a 6th Key appear. A 6th Key, however, can exist outside the knowledge of the pieces; "There are 5 Master Keys!" does not disallow the phrase "There are 6 Master Keys!" due to the absence of "only" or "exactly" or anything of the sort. That said, There are only 5 Master Keys! is the absolute truth. There is no 6th Master Key; EP2 makes this stupidly obvious since that phrase is used like 8 times, three times back to back in one of the Meta-Battles.

Look at the Game Board as a set environment and the players as telling a scenario with the pieces, ala D&D GMs. Yes, I went there for this reference.

Given this, we can extract a truth: For example, Kanon and Jessica are killed in Jessica's room. This is a truth. Beato, however, then explains it as we are shown but she never outright contradicts what is stated in Red: The key is in the room. The door is locked. Jessica is dead in the room.

The Red Truths are Truths. Period. They, however, can also be construed as such to mislead. The best example I have is I know there's a series of Red Texts used by Battler and Beato later that is a simple "X then Y then Z therefore XYZ" that logically works but does not. I don't know the content of that fight but I do know it exists.

So, my example would be:
"There are only 5 Master Keys, each held by one servant!"
"I have all 5 Master Keys!"
"Only the Master Keys can open this door!"
"Therefore, I have all the keys capable of opening this door!"

At face value, we can logically assume that if there are only 5 Master Keys and you possess them all and only those keys open that door, then the only way to open the door is with the keys you possess. However, the Master Key definition is a bit tighter than that: It is referring to the keys held by the servants. You can very well have a duplicate Key, a 6th "Master Key", but it doesn't count as a 6th Master Key, despite having the same door unlocking properties, due to not satisfying the "possessed by the servants" clause.

This is an EXAMPLE and not from the Games/Anime/etc. so don't run off with this thinking there's a 6th Master Key based off of this. For one, "Only the Master Keys can open this door!" isn't a Red Truth as the Master Keys aren't the only keys capable of opening the door (Room Key, Semi-Master Key, as in one that can open all the Room Doors but not every Door in the house, can qualify as well). There is not a single Red Truth from Beato stating that Jessica's key was not duplicated, just so you know.

We also can't deny the possibility the window was locked after the fact; "magic" requires a risk, after all, and escaping, returning, and locking your escape route is the ultimate risk. We're merely told the window is locked and was locked from the inside (as no method of locking from the outside exists) but we're never told outright "At the time of the murder the window was locked and remained locked until the corpse was found!" or something to that effect.[/spoiler]

*
[spoiler]Game 5 involves an outside addition. I'd consider it a spoiler but she's on the fucking cover so ... whatever.

That and fuck, Game 3 start, based off the episode 12 preview, shows EVEN MORE NEW CHARACTERS. Who the fuck is that new Butler with the monocle? AND THE OTHER WITCH?![/spoiler]

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:22 am
by Maxine MagicFox
[spoiler]*Nods* It took you a moment but you finally did answer my question.

The Red Text is the ABSOLUTE truth, not just the truth as Beatrice knows it. And that the two (or however many other fucking witches join) others cannot change the state of things.

*Nods* and twisting the truth is something she can do a LOT of as well.

So, when Battler is screaming at Beatrice to tell Rosa that there are only 5 Master Keys, he is not considering that Rosa might still be correct in some way that there is a duplicate key that only opened that particular door.[/spoiler]

Oh, also, @ ep 12 preview
[spoiler]that butler with the monocle for some reason the scene strikes me as a potential "flashback" and I almost wanna say that I could see that guy maybe being Kinzou or something[/spoiler]

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:27 am
by Sampson
I don't know who he is but he's suave to an almost unnatural degree.

And from carefully skimming Wikipedia (although I did get a major spoiler from reading the characters section, although it's pretty contradictory):
[spoiler]It seems Game 3 has a focus on Eva. This makes me happy.[/spoiler]

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:16 am
by scy
Butler
[spoiler]Probably Beato's "Genji" Furniture. The super loyal and stoic furniture. The first of her handcrafted furniture (the Stakes aren't furniture, just weapons) to be shown.

And the Witch is probably Virgil(a?) to follow the Divine Comedy / Beatrice reference maybe. That or we'll somehow have yet another Higurashi reference in her somehow (how the fuck would that even be possible? There were only two "Witches" in Higu T.T).[/spoiler]

Game 3 and 4
[spoiler]Eva is Game 3, Kyrie is Game 4. Each MILF gets a turn to not insta-die![/spoiler]

Edit: About that spoiler...
[spoiler]Battler, I assume?[/spoiler]

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:28 am
by scy
So a clarification on Game 2 of Umineko
[spoiler]Meta Battler did give up, partially, by the end of Game 2. Rosa Musou is what makes him change his mind (it's a pretty epic scene in the Game liek whoa, what with her fighting off goatmen with a twisted ankle and all for what felt like hours).

That's what sparks his growth from "#19 DID IT!" to "The family/servants did it!" Against all odds, Rosa stood her ground and fought even in absolute death to protect Maria, the daughter she regrets having (when she's bipolaring MOTHER OF THE YEAR). [/spoiler]

Haven't watched 12 yet (damn real life11!!1!) but wanted to get that out there since I spent the better part of the last few posts making the opposite point known.
[spoiler]His recovery makes a lot more sense in the Game though :( Anime makes it seem a lot more like "well fuck I'M BACK THOUGH I NEVER DISAPPEARED IN A META SCENE"

Misleading as fuck Battler T10 scene :( The "Meta Battler != Piece Battler" is still true, however. They are separate entities.[/spoiler]

And, something to keep in mind:
[spoiler]I'll preface this with saying this is just my train of thought for the whole anti-fantasy perspective here. Plus, I'm a shameless pro-Beato x Battler fan and, thus, she cannot be absolute evil.

The games will end when the truth is known. The truth, however, is something that is set by people. That is, if everyone says black is white, then black is white, despite what is actually true. A poor example, perhaps, but think of all sorts of murder trials where they are let off with a truth that replaces the "truth."

Applying back to Umineko, Game could've technically been called ... yet it hasn't. Beato is providing hints to help Battler come to his desired solution, not hers (albeit in a cryptic manner; re-read some of the Red Truths and even think of the purpose of Game 2 itself). I will not be surprised if it's impossible to deny someone, probably Eva (as she's the focus of Game 3), killed someone during Game 3. It fits my idea of what the Games represent:

#19 Did it -> The Family/Servants did it -> "Proof" that the Family did it and probably not alone -> Reasoning behind the Games -> Answer Arcs (removal of suspects? Removing some of the "fog" as it were?)

So, what does this leave? Beato wants Battler to reach his solution. She doesn't want to win. She wants the actual/absolute truth to be found to end the nightmare. I will not be surprised if at the end of Game 4 (final Question arc) that this ends up being the case: She does not seek victory but for Battler to realize what is going on (probably because he is the root cause of the disaster somehow).[/spoiler]

[spoiler]And just as an aside, something I want to know: Is there an actual "This Sin kills this Person" order? Proper Twilight ordering? For example:

Game 1, Eva and Hideyoshi are killed during the 2nd Twilight (Lust / Gluttony) and Jessica and Kanon are still alive. Game 2, however, Eva and Hideyoshi are dead going into the 2nd Twilight and thus Jessica and Kanon (Lust and Wrath) are chosen instead. If there's a proper order, this means Jessica and Kanon are not the intended 2nd Twilight victims. If there's a proper staking, Kanon is double up on Wrath.

Let's take another look, the 7th and 8th Twilight for both Game 1 and 2 are identical along with the associated sin (Sloth/Nanjo, Envy/Kumasawa).

So, let's look at the mismatched ones:

Game 1, Greed: 4th Twilight Kinzo
Game 2, Greed: 4th Twilight Shannon

In Game 1, Shannon is already dead so someone else is chosen. In Game 2, she gets staked properly. I can't draw a conclusion here yet outside of Shannon has a higher priority than Kinzo most likely for the Greed stake. However, the 4th Twilight matches up here.

Game 1, Pride: 6th Twilight Genji
Game 2, Pride: 6th Twilight George

An oddity, really, since Genji and George both survive Game 1 & 2 up to the 6th Twilight. So, the only conclusion I can draw here is someone else was intended to die during the 6th Twilight but was killed prior to it and these were just picked.

Game 1, Gluttony: 2nd Twilight Hideyoshi
Game 2, Gluttony: 5th Twilight Gohda

Well ... fuck. Can't really draw a conclusion here as Gohda is dead before Hideyoshi in Game 1 and the opposite in Game 2. That said, I'd wager Hideyoshi fits but there's no "evidence" to support it.

Game 1, Lust: 2nd Twilight Eva
Game 2, Lust: 2nd Twilight Jessica

Touched on it already but I'd like to note that the 2nd Twilight portion holds constant here so far. Again, Jessica was alive past Eva in Game 1 but Eva died before her in Game 2 so she's "more intended" than Jessica.

Game 1, Wrath: 5th Twilight Kanon
Game 2, Wrath: 2nd Twilight Kanon

The Twilight doesn't match but the target does.

So, what are we left with?

2nd Twilight: Lust ??? intended target.
2nd Twilight: ??? ??? intended target.
4th Twilight: Greed ??? intended target.
5th Twilight: ??? ??? intended target.
6th Twilight: Pride ??? intended target.
7th Twilight: Sloth Nanjo intended target.
8th Twilight: Envy Kumasawa intended target.

Non-staked: Rudolf, Krauss, Natsuhi, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria.

However, Natsuhi and Rosa have both fully survived a Game AND died in the 1st Twilight. I don't think either of them are meant to be staked.

And, yes, this works off a great assumption: The staking targets aren't random, the ordering of sins matters. Beyond that, only two Games to work with so Game 3 and 4 (and 5+ if they also have stakings) may fuck this whole thing up. However, if they're still 2/3 after 3 Games, it still holds some merit.

My guesses:

2nd Twilight: Lust Rudolf intended target.
2nd Twilight: Wrath Kanon intended target.
4th Twilight: Greed ??? intended target.
5th Twilight: Gluttony Hideyoshi intended target.
6th Twilight: Pride Krauss intended target.
7th Twilight: Sloth Nanjo intended target.
8th Twilight: Envy Kumasawa intended target.

The problem with 2nd Twilight is ... how the fuck are Rudolf and Kanon close? Also, I have no fucking idea for Greed, though I want to place Shannon there tentatively but ... fuck, the entire adult family fits it really. T2 Greed Shannon, however, fits over Rudolf to match with Kanon to match the Twilight wording but no precedence to place Greed there over Lust.

What I want from Game 3 is more matching (i.e, another Lust 2nd Twilight or something) or more staking of people that doesn't switch. That is, Hideyoshi, for example, is staked again as Gluttony and not, say, Wrath. So far, the people staked more than once have been staked with the same ... well, stake. If this continues, this whole theory holds a little more water.

And, I swear ... if a stake is "killed" (can that even ... happen? I guess breaking the stake works) I'll be fucking pissed. Like, if we end up with some missing stake victims somehow. WAY TO FUCK THINGS UP IF YOU DO THIS.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]And no, I don't know anything from Game 3 and 4 outside of the one thing mentioned before. SORRY IF I'M SMARTER THAN YOU.

Except not.

On the sorry.

...[/spoiler]

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:07 pm
by Maxine MagicFox
[spoiler]Don't forget in your "twilight intended" reasoning that in game 1, we had some protection charms floating around that could have screwed the order up by a lot.[/spoiler]

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:52 pm
by Kinokokao
You know, they could be cybering under those spoiler tags and I'd never know...

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 5:18 pm
by negzee
[spoiler]XD[/spoiler]

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 6:11 pm
by scy

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:23 pm
by Kinokokao

Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:50 am
by scy
so ... Umineko 12.

[spoiler]Mmm, young Beato.

...

Fuck, having a pedophile roomate has tainted me.

Anyway, episode wasn't bad and a few "OH LOOK AT THIS" turns but answered a lot more than expected if you're capable of thinking.

Hint: "I can't say there are 18" and "I can't say there are 19" means "There aren't more than 17." But there there if you got confused.

Episode 13 will probably have a "There are less than 19 people on the island!" to reinforce the "only the 18 are there" train of thought. And to help those who couldn't pick up on that fucking obvious point from this episode.

Also, young Beato (with moefang omg) is <3.

Oh and even Eva-Witch(?) in the OP (along with the full stakes and ... bunny girls) are <3. Also, Horo-Eva is sounding ... well, more like what I figured Horo-Eva would.

Also, Bronove.[/spoiler]

Edit: Oh yeah, Spice and Wolf II up to 11. I'd have a nice screencap but the amount of Horo x Lawrence would rape all my space so ... yeah.
[spoiler]...so yeah.[/spoiler]

Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:17 pm
by negzee
Just watched The Sky Crawlers last night. <3

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:11 am
by noodles
my friend tried to get me to watch the first episode of Shuffle

after about 15 minutes I left the room feeling stupider

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:23 pm
by Maxine MagicFox

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:26 pm
by negzee