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You should definitely read Artemis Fowl. The first book is highly recommended. The next books in the series didn't quite reach up to the first one, but they are still good - for one basic reason. :3 You just dunno WHO the hell you want to root for. Read it, it's serious fun.

One of the best and worst things about YA is that they are generally quick reads. I read Artemis Fowl within a few hours. (I couldn't put it down, though.) The language is always quick and easy, the adventures are fun and relaxing (but never boring).

I don't mind my fantasy being low key. However... I just didn't get the point or the draw when I was trying to read through Game of Thrones. "Oh, so it's just about a bunch of royals who are either fucking each other, murdering each other, lieing to each other, or ignoring each other. Group 1: Royal family with a dad that cheated on wife, has a resentful bastard son. Group 2: Brother is fucking sister, sends sister out to be fucked by someone else so he can try to get on throne. Group 3: Similar to Group 1 but the mom is the incestuous adulterous in this case, who just murdered someone. Oh and there's a hunchback who will never be king but probably should be."

..... I felt like I was watching some crappy soap opera only it was in a fantasy setting...



Reached pg 100 and was still wondering why I was reading it. When I could be reading about cats going on wild adventures trying to protect their clans or reading about a fifteen year old boy learning how to put his climbing and thieving skills to good use or an oversmart nearsighted goblin who is captured by a group of heroes and manages to out-hero them or a cute sidetake on old fairytales where sleeping beauty uses her graceful skills to wield blades to protect cinderella and snow white...

Meh, there's a thousand and one other far more interesting books I'd rather read than a book that focuses only on kingdom politics in a "as the world turns" setting.

*writes down Diane Duane*

Oh, and if you liked Brian Jacques :3 you should DEFINITELY take a look at Warriors!

Why I'm gonna have a whale of a time with that

@Maxine - Have you read the Circle of Magic quartet by Tamora Pierce? I can't remember if we've talked about it before.

@my current read - It has been a long time since a book has compelled me to read at stop lights while driving.

Sister got Goliath, so I'm going to switch gears from realistic dark fantasy to historical fiction steampunk.

@Trifkin: You didn't mention that particular series but you did mention Tamora Pierce. :3 She's already on my list. I'll put that series as my first to read whenever I get around to her.

We still care about the throne?

And it came out bitchier than intended but shitty morning, more hospital shit, and shitty morning. And lolhatemail.

Definitely agree that this debate is all about taste, not that the SoI&F is boring, or that more 'typical' fantasy is boring or something like that.

I don't share Maxine's take that they sound uninteresting without more magic. However, I do understand why someone wouldn't get drawn into a fantasy that doesn't have much of the fantastic. Some people like fantasy specifically for that.

The way I see it, fantasy has two underlying characteristics:
A) An imagined world with its own cultures, history, places, and kinds of people.
B) Fantastic experiences and forces like magic, supernatural beings, and unique rules of nature.

A fantasy setting can have huge variation in either of those two characteristics. For instance, we were just talking about urban fantasy, which by definition tends to be low on A (a made-up, separate world), so the focus is on the fantastic and supernatural stuff in a an otherwise ordinary world.

Other fantasy, like Song of Ice and Fire, is really high on A but lower on B, in that the world is very well imagined and realized, but the fantastic elements are minor.

People are attracted to fantasy for both features, and both are great, but one often values one feature more than the other. Maxine clearly enjoys fantastic B stuff more than the A stuff, whereas Scy appears to feel the opposite way (guys, correct me if I'm putting words in anyone's mouth).

I could go for both, it just depends on the storyline. I like the soap opera-y stuff. I do think I'd like to read SoI&F eventually. One of my best friends and my boss love it, and I've received strong recommendations from others like Kino.

Excellent analysis, Jubelon. I agree with Fantasy having A/B elements like you defined.

Thinking about it, Swordspoint has absolutely zero B and is entirely A. I cannot think of a single fantastic or magical element to it, and what world-building that does exist merely sets up a framework for the characters -- Kushner doesn't even name her City, for crying out loud. It's a spare, elegant novel that's distinctly fantasy, but entirely unfantastical.

On the subject of book recommendations and selecting current reads:

how would people feel about an ITL Book Club? I was thinking of starting a sign-up.

Book selection would be taken in turns; everyone would get a chance to pick the club's read. I think that's most fair, and would be a great opportunity for us to read something we normally wouldn't pick for ourselves. There would be some guidelines, like length and availability (ie, everyone can at the very least find it at the library or in a new bookstore, and nothing overly long or the first book in a series, because that's not fun either), to make sure everyone has the opportunity to find and read the book within the time limit. We'd have a set date for everyone to have read the book, and then "meet" to discuss it. The person who "assigned" the book could pose questions, or we could just let the dialogue unfold, or a little of both, or whatever you guys wanted. I'd start a spin-off thread for the book club so as not to clutter this thread. Rules would be simple, but everyone would have to read the book to participate, otherwise it's no fun.

So... anyone interested?

I like the idea in general, though I don't know if I read often enough to feel capable of keeping up.

As for your analysis, Jubelon, basically but not quite. I don't necessarily mind fantastical elements, it's more of a distaste for how High Fantasy typically presents them. I dislike Chosen Ones. I dislike Deus Ex Magica. I dislike how High Fantasy approaches world building. A lot of them typically build up a world with a cast of characters and then neglects to give a shit about them.

(Note: I realize the irony when I read/watch a shitton of Anime stuff which is a lot of Chosen Ones and Deus Ex Machina. With the visual media, I at least get a spectacle out of it.)

The world is there as a backdrop to the actions; relevant as needed but for all you know it's made up on the spot (or asspulls prior things and labels it foreshadowing and callbacks). The various host of characters are practically RPG NPCs for all they matter, as well. Part of "fantasy" is the construction of a new world for the reader to experience, yet many times it's merely experienced as the protagonist does so.

Game of Thrones / A Song of Ice and Fire works so well due to the narrative structure allowing the world as a whole and the displaced cast of characters to show that this world lives, breathes, and goes on as the pages turn. Their lives are not events waiting for the proper flags to pop to get them to action.

Beyond that, I'm not sure what in and of itself turns me off the typical High Fantasy. It's not necessarily "I cast magic missile at the darkness" as, whatever, that's fine. It's more of the writing style and approach that typical High Fantasy takes for it. I'd love recommendations otherwise but I honestly am not looking into "Its cool there's spells." That's not a selling point. It's not even a hook.

Hrrrm... I like the idea on paper Kino and my instant reaction is SIGN ME UP!!

However... then I think on myself: limited time. I do my best to read when I can, but I can't always make it. But more importantly, if you guys haven't noticed I'm a bit of a selfish reader. :[ I like my stuff and if I'm not into your stuff I generally will not try to pick it up. I SAY that I'm going to continue GoT eventually but... I knocked it off my nook's desktop this morning. It now only exists in the library.

STILL.... because I am a bit of a shelfish reader I think "oooh, then I can spread around all of the books that I like!!"


*sigh* But then you guys have already stated that you will probably not take any of my recommendations and I don't wanna force people to read things they would hate, nor do I want the things I enjoy to be put down. So... I'm going to refrain from joining. I'll be over here... in the corner....


Hrrrm... freebies... do I wanna download....


Aww, fuck... they are free, why not?

Which brings up a rather good point... would you guys read it if I actually read and tried to recommend Scepter of the Ancients, or would you just save time and kill me instead? I think you guys would kill me...


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@Jubelon, I think you've divided it up very poorly to be honest, though I think fantasy is one of those things that just can't be divided up easily.

I do not mind new fantasy worlds. I LOVE them. The better and more interesting the world, the more I want to drool over it. I can't remember how many times I sat studying the maps in Tolkien and Brian Jacques' books. I love world building just as much as possibly Scy does.

However, where Scy hates "cliches" I embrace them. There is no better story to me than the "Chosen One". I love those most of all. I've mentioned it before but I like the thrill that I get one the character suddenly learns the truth about their destiny and it's that O_O moment.

What turns me off though is you were right: I do like the more fantastical things, but it's more than that. I want the characters off on some grand quest. I want new magic being discovered and twists and turns.

Palace politics do not interest me in the least. It does not immerse me. I don't feel like I've left the real world behind at all. Somehow has just created a new cover for our current world. <_< When I read I do NOT want to be reminded that I, too, exist in a world that is filled with that sort of shit.