Discussion Thread II: Bots? What bots?
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ZetaBladeX13
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ZetaBladeX13
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Maxine MagicFox
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Then, Zandrena, I should have been there.
It's not always about the content. About the newness of what is in the story content. Sure, it's great when/if someone does break the mold. Those moments are the most fantastic ever - and also, more often than naught, some of the worst.
The same goes with your typical fantasy. Even though you predicted everything in your friend's story, did you ask her what her characters were like? The sort of troubled past and how it is presented in the story and affects the characters and the story itself. How is the magic system set up?
Take my storiesfor example, and please bare with me as I answer each of these questions to make a point and it's going to get lengthy:
[spoiler]A male teenager lead, the silent type who carries a sword that has a troubled past.
My answer: Based on my book, The Broken: Why, yes, he is definitely the silent type. He's mute, in fact. And lost his sister. The sword he found is broken and talks to him - and he can talk to it, the first person he's ever been able to talk to.
He likely has a female support character who carries a book or staff. She has great morals and follows the lead character around like she has no life outside of it.
She's a princess and while she doesn't carry around a book or staff, she oddly has the second half to this sword. She is also so powerful (but too young to use these powers) that the villain is after her.... and her bodyguard is a mute... she has no choice but to follow him...
The villian is a dark entity who betrayed the Gods/other powerful people to get where he is.
Well, sort of... my villain is trying to trick the Gods into granting him complete immortality. He's half got it, but he still doesn't have the final piece... come here, princess.....
It's a world where people go to a school to learn magic.
My story The Broken doesn't but in The Little Questors there is...
And poor Maxine HATES it and makes failing grades and can't get past first year... ironically she later finds out she's the reincarnation of the fallen angel of magic.
The main character lost both of their parents or doesn't know who they are.
In The Broken it doesn't matter. I don't dwell on this aspect. In TLQ, I make a point that Maxine is orphaned but not until the second book do I get into details when she meets her brother who killed her parents. Meh, I still don't dwell on it all that much.
The world has dieties attributed to each element.
Not in The Broken but in TLQ:
*Nods* I call them my Elementals, too. Based off Greek, Roman, and Norse mythology they play a pretty substantial part of the stories since well, in Maxine's tale she is the reincarnation of one. ... They don't much like her though since they cast the original out of the heavens for having done something very bad. The Elemental of Time, though, Drakkar's closest friend, has become an absolute drunk! (yes... a drunkard God... XD ... OF TIME! ... I hate time... and I really make him a pretty poor character to reflect how I feel about time) and can't stand Maxine especially since she reminds him so much of his friend. (It's later revealed that the crime for which Drakkar was kicked out for was really HIS sin... I told you, Time is a bastard!)
Other stories build on this in other ways: My little trickster goddess who I haven't decided on a name for is placed in the body of a young child without her memories of a Goddess. She goes off on a quest to retrieve her memories only to find out in the end that she is indeed a Goddess and that this was a way to teach her some hard lessons about learning to have friends and be aware of the feelings of others. ^_^ At the end of the story she even decides to remain as a child to grow up with this close set of friends she has made. XD Nothing like having a powerful trickster goddess on your team as you are questing around the world. I dunno if I wanna make it a stand alone or if I wanna do subsequent stories about other quests they have together.
Then of course there's the second book in which poor Jack goes through such hell but is finally awarded the position of being a lesser Elemental.
And then we can't forget about my poor Driad who my sprite Kriss falls maddly in love with. She is searching for her tree. She doesn't think it was destroyed but it's obviously NOT where she left it.... ....
And Tyche the one-eyed goddess of fortune who I'm wanting to have a place in a book where she loses her eye. I'm still hammering out details.
I also have the three spinners: Clotho, Lachesis, and Atropos who play a VERY big role since my magic system is all about the World of Threads that only Maxine or other Weavers/Fallen Angel of Magic Reincarnates can see.
[/spoiler]
So you see, if I did my job just right, it's not necessarily about things being cliche. It's about bringing new and fun elements to these things that are mistaken for "cliche".
^_^ I dunno... I personally love challenging cliches and seeing how I can twist and alter them. I think of them as a challenge. "Pfft, you think this is cliche then TRY THIS! VOILA! A Sorcerer who has the in-born ability of knowing EVERYTHING in existance, but his restriction placed on this in-born ability is that he is very very forgetful..... My poor Arkoff... He drives Maxine bonkers 'cause within the first page of meeting him he asks if she wants to join him about five times after walking in and finding him sitting at a chess table on which a tea set is lain out amongst the pieces and him and his dragon are happily sitting there sipping away from... uh... ^_^; bowls....
It's not always about the content. About the newness of what is in the story content. Sure, it's great when/if someone does break the mold. Those moments are the most fantastic ever - and also, more often than naught, some of the worst.
The same goes with your typical fantasy. Even though you predicted everything in your friend's story, did you ask her what her characters were like? The sort of troubled past and how it is presented in the story and affects the characters and the story itself. How is the magic system set up?
Take my storiesfor example, and please bare with me as I answer each of these questions to make a point and it's going to get lengthy:
[spoiler]A male teenager lead, the silent type who carries a sword that has a troubled past.
My answer: Based on my book, The Broken: Why, yes, he is definitely the silent type. He's mute, in fact. And lost his sister. The sword he found is broken and talks to him - and he can talk to it, the first person he's ever been able to talk to.
He likely has a female support character who carries a book or staff. She has great morals and follows the lead character around like she has no life outside of it.
She's a princess and while she doesn't carry around a book or staff, she oddly has the second half to this sword. She is also so powerful (but too young to use these powers) that the villain is after her.... and her bodyguard is a mute... she has no choice but to follow him...
The villian is a dark entity who betrayed the Gods/other powerful people to get where he is.
Well, sort of... my villain is trying to trick the Gods into granting him complete immortality. He's half got it, but he still doesn't have the final piece... come here, princess.....
It's a world where people go to a school to learn magic.
My story The Broken doesn't but in The Little Questors there is...
And poor Maxine HATES it and makes failing grades and can't get past first year... ironically she later finds out she's the reincarnation of the fallen angel of magic.
The main character lost both of their parents or doesn't know who they are.
In The Broken it doesn't matter. I don't dwell on this aspect. In TLQ, I make a point that Maxine is orphaned but not until the second book do I get into details when she meets her brother who killed her parents. Meh, I still don't dwell on it all that much.
The world has dieties attributed to each element.
Not in The Broken but in TLQ:
*Nods* I call them my Elementals, too. Based off Greek, Roman, and Norse mythology they play a pretty substantial part of the stories since well, in Maxine's tale she is the reincarnation of one. ...
They don't much like her though since they cast the original out of the heavens for having done something very bad. The Elemental of Time, though, Drakkar's closest friend, has become an absolute drunk! (yes... a drunkard God... XD ... OF TIME! ... I hate time... and I really make him a pretty poor character to reflect how I feel about time) and can't stand Maxine especially since she reminds him so much of his friend. (It's later revealed that the crime for which Drakkar was kicked out for was really HIS sin... I told you, Time is a bastard!)
Other stories build on this in other ways: My little trickster goddess who I haven't decided on a name for is placed in the body of a young child without her memories of a Goddess. She goes off on a quest to retrieve her memories only to find out in the end that she is indeed a Goddess and that this was a way to teach her some hard lessons about learning to have friends and be aware of the feelings of others. ^_^ At the end of the story she even decides to remain as a child to grow up with this close set of friends she has made. XD Nothing like having a powerful trickster goddess on your team as you are questing around the world. I dunno if I wanna make it a stand alone or if I wanna do subsequent stories about other quests they have together.
Then of course there's the second book in which poor Jack goes through such hell but is finally awarded the position of being a lesser Elemental.
And then we can't forget about my poor Driad who my sprite Kriss falls maddly in love with. She is searching for her tree. She doesn't think it was destroyed but it's obviously NOT where she left it.... ....
And Tyche the one-eyed goddess of fortune who I'm wanting to have a place in a book where she loses her eye. I'm still hammering out details.
I also have the three spinners: Clotho, Lachesis, and Atropos who play a VERY big role since my magic system is all about the World of Threads that only Maxine or other Weavers/Fallen Angel of Magic Reincarnates can see.
[/spoiler]
So you see, if I did my job just right, it's not necessarily about things being cliche. It's about bringing new and fun elements to these things that are mistaken for "cliche".
^_^ I dunno... I personally love challenging cliches and seeing how I can twist and alter them. I think of them as a challenge. "Pfft, you think this is cliche then TRY THIS! VOILA! A Sorcerer who has the in-born ability of knowing EVERYTHING in existance, but his restriction placed on this in-born ability is that he is very very forgetful.....
My poor Arkoff... He drives Maxine bonkers 'cause within the first page of meeting him he asks if she wants to join him about five times after walking in and finding him sitting at a chess table on which a tea set is lain out amongst the pieces and him and his dragon are happily sitting there sipping away from... uh... ^_^; bowls....
Last edited by Maxine MagicFox on Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Twat
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Oh, I never said there was anything wrong with that. If there is enough talent, someone can take something incredibly stale and boring and make it into something magical; that's why a lot of video game companies higher writers to freshen up their work. Some of them destroy it, ruining the fanbase while others make it into something that only grabs a wider audience.
Even if she did something different, it's predicting all of that which bothered her. Really, the above sounds bleh to me. :[ Maybe if I could read far into it I'd be interested. There are a lot of things people don't realize.
Examples
Why do there need to be dragons?
Why does there have to be a castle with a western monarchy?
Why does the evil need to be dark?
Why is the reason for being "evil" so uninspired?
Why do they need to use a sword?
Why does it have to be holy entities like gods and angels or dark entities like devils or demons? Why not just spiritual dieties without alignments like elements?
I can go on. I'm not saying using these qualities instantly make it bad, it's just so restricting. The fact it's been done a lot... is fine if they can cure it but that doesn't stop the outlets from being overdone.
Edit - I should also mention how annoying it is when people force their work to be TOO original. Things aren't funny when they should be, they don't make sense and reading/watching it feels like I've had too many drinks. :[
Even if she did something different, it's predicting all of that which bothered her. Really, the above sounds bleh to me. :[ Maybe if I could read far into it I'd be interested. There are a lot of things people don't realize.
Examples
Why do there need to be dragons?
Why does there have to be a castle with a western monarchy?
Why does the evil need to be dark?
Why is the reason for being "evil" so uninspired?
Why do they need to use a sword?
Why does it have to be holy entities like gods and angels or dark entities like devils or demons? Why not just spiritual dieties without alignments like elements?
I can go on. I'm not saying using these qualities instantly make it bad, it's just so restricting. The fact it's been done a lot... is fine if they can cure it but that doesn't stop the outlets from being overdone.
Edit - I should also mention how annoying it is when people force their work to be TOO original. Things aren't funny when they should be, they don't make sense and reading/watching it feels like I've had too many drinks. :[
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Maxine MagicFox
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Why do there need to be dragons?
I once tried to make a story that involved a fire-breathing chipmunk The result was altogether amusing but not all that menacing. Further, sometimes, it's just easier to go with the more easily recognizable 'cliche' rather than spending five whole paragraphs fumbling about as you attempt to explain and describe this new, intimidating species you have created.
Why does there have to be a castle with a western monarchy?
A king in a skyscraper doesn't really sound all that appealing and honestly, which would you rather have: a story about a president that has to make an intense political choice about bombing the hell out of a city of goblins or a story about the king of a castle who has created a maze behind his front gates from which archers can shoot down at the rampaging men below?
Why does the evil need to be dark?
What would the point of the story be then?
Why is the reason for being "evil" so uninspired?
Because they are suppose to embody all the elements that humans loathe. Honestly, have you ever read the Iliad? By the time I was done I felt so unrewarded and so emptied that Achilles had killed Hector and even felt Achilles was the one who should have been killed. Seriously, you fuck your reader up like this and makes them ask "what the hell is this guy trying to SAY?!
Why do they need to use a sword?
Let's be honest... "In the midsts of battle, Vorgren the evil Sorceress took up her enchanted bow and released a shaft with all her strength, but the prince of light Morgrin easily dodged and let loose his own shaft, but Vorgren, too, was far too quick and dodged the arrow. He released another shaft but this time Morgrin was waiting and lifted up his shield and deflected the arrow." ....... That could get boring VERY VERY fast.... ^_^;
I once tried to make a story that involved a fire-breathing chipmunk The result was altogether amusing but not all that menacing. Further, sometimes, it's just easier to go with the more easily recognizable 'cliche' rather than spending five whole paragraphs fumbling about as you attempt to explain and describe this new, intimidating species you have created.
Why does there have to be a castle with a western monarchy?
A king in a skyscraper doesn't really sound all that appealing and honestly, which would you rather have: a story about a president that has to make an intense political choice about bombing the hell out of a city of goblins or a story about the king of a castle who has created a maze behind his front gates from which archers can shoot down at the rampaging men below?
Why does the evil need to be dark?
What would the point of the story be then?
Why is the reason for being "evil" so uninspired?
Because they are suppose to embody all the elements that humans loathe. Honestly, have you ever read the Iliad? By the time I was done I felt so unrewarded and so emptied that Achilles had killed Hector and even felt Achilles was the one who should have been killed. Seriously, you fuck your reader up like this and makes them ask "what the hell is this guy trying to SAY?!
Why do they need to use a sword?
Let's be honest... "In the midsts of battle, Vorgren the evil Sorceress took up her enchanted bow and released a shaft with all her strength, but the prince of light Morgrin easily dodged and let loose his own shaft, but Vorgren, too, was far too quick and dodged the arrow. He released another shaft but this time Morgrin was waiting and lifted up his shield and deflected the arrow." ....... That could get boring VERY VERY fast.... ^_^;
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Riseatrance
- Manticor
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- Location: Hong Kong
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So someone on IRC introduced me to this wonderful manga: Yubisaki Milk Tea.
It's... Hmm... Well, one of the first manga to fill me up with emotions for some reason, in a really long time. The last one was last year when a friend gave me a yuri manga as a present... I didn't think she'd actually get that for me, heh...
It's... Hmm... Well, one of the first manga to fill me up with emotions for some reason, in a really long time. The last one was last year when a friend gave me a yuri manga as a present... I didn't think she'd actually get that for me, heh...
My current game projects:
茨心 -Thornheart- (jRPG, yuri) || Heaven's Kiss: Fallen Hydrangea (Twine, yuri romance)
(#dota2) I support Team DK! 国土無双 (LaNm), you will be missed...
Follow me on Twitter at !
3DS - 3883:5561:7702 (Please msg me on Twitter/here/Skype if you add me!)
PAD - 201,267,866 (Japanese Servers. Common Leaders: Archangel, Ganesh)
茨心 -Thornheart- (jRPG, yuri) || Heaven's Kiss: Fallen Hydrangea (Twine, yuri romance)
(#dota2) I support Team DK! 国土無双 (LaNm), you will be missed...
Follow me on Twitter at !
3DS - 3883:5561:7702 (Please msg me on Twitter/here/Skype if you add me!)
PAD - 201,267,866 (Japanese Servers. Common Leaders: Archangel, Ganesh)
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Kimiko
- Manticor
- Posts: 6044
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*Thumbs up for mentioning Summon Night: Swordcraft Story*
I agree that pure good vs. pure evil is soo boring. It's the struggle and self-discovery that comes from blurry not-so-good vs. not-really-evil that's much more interesting.
That's one of the things I found disappointing about Futari Wa Pretty Cure. The good folks never do anything wrong, the bad folks actually had some redeeming qualities, but got defeated just the same, simply for threatening the good folks. Okay, it's an anime aimed at kids, so very deep reflection and struggle might be over their heads, but still, they could've made it more nuanced than it was.
I agree that pure good vs. pure evil is soo boring. It's the struggle and self-discovery that comes from blurry not-so-good vs. not-really-evil that's much more interesting.
That's one of the things I found disappointing about Futari Wa Pretty Cure. The good folks never do anything wrong, the bad folks actually had some redeeming qualities, but got defeated just the same, simply for threatening the good folks. Okay, it's an anime aimed at kids, so very deep reflection and struggle might be over their heads, but still, they could've made it more nuanced than it was.
Kimiko
Rewatching: Beast Player Erin
Rewatching: Beast Player Erin
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