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Golden Deer Pub Community Forums • Visual Novels - Page 10
Page 10 of 53

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:27 pm
by AppleInject
I still can't consider them (Ever 17 and Narcissu) games even if they're classified that way, to me they should just be called interactive stories.
Gyakuten Kenji is different because you're at least solving puzzles, you're moving a character around and investigating that world. Reading a story and answering multiple choice questions that change what ending you get... just isn't the same thing.

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:48 pm
by ZetaBladeX13

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:52 pm
by Maxine MagicFox
*Shrugs* I've no problem one way or another if it's a game or not. :3 I love VNs.

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:07 pm
by ZetaBladeX13
Well, all I'm trying to say is that regardless of what any individual says, Visual Novels are recognized by the gaming industry as a legitimate Video Game genre.

For example, I've also talked to people who claim that First-Person Shooters are their own separate genre (and not a sub-genre of Shooters) solely because; "While this is considered a subgenre it seems that the majority of the shooters that come now now days are FPS thus I don't regard it a sub genre".

The gaming community and Industry decides what a genre is, not a single individual's opinion.

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:17 am
by Sampson
Why must Umineko be such a mindfuck?

Warning: lots and lots of text
[spoiler]These are just some thoughts. They're not organized enough to be called a theory, and I'm not too familiar with the red truths (although I know the basics for everything that isn't ep 4 from the anime) or the games themselves.

Kyrie is the culprit, being the mastermind. Jessica and Kanon are accomplices, and Nanjo's being threatened into helping.

Kyrie faked her death in games 1 and 3. Someone had to be faking in game 1, anyway. I know it's confirmed in red that there are no body doubles in ep 5, but did that apply to all games? Since she faked her death in game 3, she was probably the one to kill Nanjo. That's the only opening in Eva-Beatrice's red web, as far as I can tell.

I had to involve Jessica in my jumbled thoughts because of the second game, which I haven't bothered thinking about too much. And Kanon just because, maybe.

If Kyrie was just really good at making it seem like her face was blown off in ep 1, and the shed was unlockable from the inside, she could have easily escaped. Gohda and Shannon could have had master keys on them, and Kanon could have snuck one to her when the bodies were discovered.

Obviously, Eva wasn't at her mental best by the end of game 3 and she killed Battler thinking, mistakenly, he was the culprit. She went back to Kuwadorian or wherever the Golden Land is and was eventually discovered by the police. Jessica died because of the bomb, and Eva-Beatrice is just a red herring.

The deaths occur a day early in game 4, which makes me think that something happened outside of the killer's control. Specifically, Kinzo's death was discovered by the adults, Krauss (who was accepted as Kinzo for using his identity while he was dead or something shut up I know I'm not good at this) brought everyone but the grandchildren together and shot his three siblings, plus Hideyoshi (I wouldn't want to take him in a fight) Natsuhi (accidental or she was whining), and Genji (he probably tried to stop him and Krauss mistook this as an assault). Not wanting to let the children know he's a murderer, he orders Gohda and Kumasawa to tell them that it was sorcerer Kinzo's fault. He took everyone else prisoner. He lied about the tests to make sure he knew where everyone was and told them to put Gohda and Kumasawa in the shed (I think he did) to keep them quiet.

We know Kanon died 9th, and Kyrie died afterwards. I'm assuming the rest of the "group" was Shannon, Nanjo, and Krauss, but who knows...

Gohda and Kumasawa could have hung themselves. Kinzo could have been included in the death count, and Jessica called Battler right before she killed herself (she correctly guessed what was going on since she was conspiring with Kyrie and I don't know maybe she realized there was "no hope left" or something like that), meaning eight people were dead. If sixteen people were on the island in the first place, Kinzo and the other dead guy/girl could have been included, and there was no second twilight as of yet.

As for Erika being the seventeenth person...I read an interesting theory about how she was the "0th" person. I wouldn't put it past the author to do this, although it's a stupid trick. Although I know hardly anything specific about game 6, so...[/spoiler]

Well, those are my thoughts. Feel free to tear them apart as you please.

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:37 am
by scy
"0th" is a stupid theory, in my opinion.

[spoiler]If only for the sake of it being insulting :(

One major "flaw" is that Kyrie is confirmed dead at the time of Nanjo's Game 3 death. There's something I'm missing here on that "I WILL LIST EVERYONE OFF AS DEAD" Red Truth barrage from Game 3. I need to find the original line and run it every-which-way in translation to see if there's something there that I'm overlooking.

Also, the "no body doubles" was confirmed long before that and it was in regard to Game 1 if I recall; the bodies seen there are their real bodies. It does not negate the logic that one of them is faking it, however. There is a truth, though, about the missing faces being who they appear to be but I don't believe there was one in regard to the two who's faces remained.[/spoiler]

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:42 pm
by Sampson
Thank you, Scy.

Here's the red truth about Nanjo (mainly for myself):
[spoiler]
After Jessica was injured, Eva was always under Battler's supervision.
Battler is neither the culprit or an accomplice.
By this, we can establish a perfect alibi for Eva
There are no more than 18 people on this island
No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game
Kinzo is dead
Krauss is dead
Natsuhi is dead
Hideyoshi is dead
George is dead
Rudolf is dead
Kyrie is dead
Rosa is dead
Maria is dead
Genji is dead
Shannon is dead
Kanon is dead
Gohda is dead
Kumasawa is dead
Nanjo is dead
The 15 people mentioned are dead
Battler is alive
Eva is alive
Jessica is alive
Eva was with you the whole time.
So committing a crime was impossible for her.
Of course, Battler-kun isn't the culprit.
He wasn't forging an alibi for her, and he took the possibility that she was the culprit into account, watching her actions carefully.
No chance existed for her to do anything suspicious!
In short, at the time of the crime, only Nanjo and Jessica were in the servants' room
Ushiromiya Jessica has not committed murder
She was not involved with Nanjo's murder
Her eyes were completely blocked.
It's impossible for her to carry out a murder like that
Neither Eva nor Battler killed Nanjo, nor were they involved
The culprit who killed Nanjo was neither Battler nor Eva nor Jessica
Jessica's eyes were completely blocked, and murder was impossible for her
No actions caused by Jessica's body had any relation to or influence on the murder of Nanjo
This also applies to Battler and Eva
neither Jessica nor Battler nor Eva is the culprit who killed Nanjo
Nanjo was killed by another person
Of course, it was with a direct method of murder, not a trap
A weapon was readied, and he was killed with it from point-blank range in front of him!
The culprit appeared openly before Nanjo's eyes, and as they both looked at each other's faces, the culprit killed him
The red only tells the truth
Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board
The one who killed Nanjo was definitely a human
A human, with their feet on the ground, held up a weapon and killed with it!
Right before his eyes!


Note how I put "Nanjo is dead" is in bold, just to prove a point. This means that the red truth concerning his death was made after he died. The culprit, Kyrie or not, could have walked up to him, shot him, then shoot him/herself after leaving the area.[/spoiler]

Do you see any problems with this? I'm serious, since probably know more about this than me. I don't see many other possibilities, though.

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:12 pm
by scy
The only issue with that is I believe:
[spoiler]It is a theory presented in the game that is then shot down; that the Red Truth Body Count listing is done purposefully to give the time for A to kill B and then A to die in time for the Red Truth to be correct. However, I don't think there's a Red Truth shooting it down just something Trollkastel and λδ remark after Game 4 about the truth still being hidden and all his theories are wrong.

"However, their deaths were not proclaimed in red at the instant Doctor Nanjo died. Strictly speaking, it was in the fight between me and EVA after Doctor Nanjo's corpse was found. In other words, if someone who was alive at the time that Doctor Nanjo was killed died before EVA proclaimed that death, you can sew right through that crack!! In other words, it's like this. One of those who were first made dead by EVA's proclamation of the deaths, was able to skillfully play dead earlier and wait for us to pass by...! And while their death still hadn't been proclaimed with the red, we were made to think that they had died. Then they killed Doctor Nanjo, ......and later died for some reason! Then after that, EVA proclaimed their death in red!!"

...but there's not a Red Truth proclamation stating it wrong, just those two claiming Battler to be wrong.

Edit: As for the Kyire part, I meant a different Red Truth about her train of thought up to the point she dies. I think it's mentioned prior to the Nanjo scenario which gives Kyrie a time of death. Alternatively, can read it as a red herring/false hint for her time of death and it means from then until whenever she actually dies, her behavior was as such.

Though, if I remember right, Nanjo dies in the mansion and Kyrie's behavior up to the point of death was to not enter the mansion ("...not going to get food=not going to the mansion...). Meh.

Personally, I like the theory but I can't help shake there's something I'm missing; beyond that, it just allows us to slip through the crack but not really pinpoint a murderer (well, besides omitting the 8 Red Truth deaths up to that point). As far as I can tell, the name listing counts for Sayo and Yoshua so they're confirmed dead, body doubles/"TWINZ!" are thrown out, and there's no MR. X running around murdering for kicks.

The only other theory I've remotely liked is that "Nanjo" referred to by that isn't the one on the island but someone else and the one on the island isn't really Nanjo the entire time. It unfortunately fails under inspection from Occam's Razor where we get no real extra explanatory/informative power from the added complexity (unless we use it to loophole every Nanjo Red Truth). Plus it's ridiculous.

Still, the "died after killing Nanjo" theory is the best fit for the murder and it's the theory I've been operating under when going for my own solution. The only "real" hindrance is the fact it gets shot down in the games themselves, albeit not attached to a Red Truth/Gold Truth.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Speaking of Gold Truth:

Using magic, you created a golden rose petal underneath the cup. It was a magnificent display of magic

This is definitely one that probably falls under Dlanor's explanation of Golden Truths (equal to Red Truth, though sometimes stronger, sometimes inferior); it can't have the absolute truth property that has been assumed of it otherwise it claims that magic is real as an absolute fact. Therefore, what the hell does this line mean?

The other Golden Truth, if I recall, is the Kinzo corpse confirmation (hence the idea of it being an absolute fact). Ugh. Not really helpful, in my opinion, for trying to solve what the Golden Truths mean.[/spoiler]

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:31 pm
by Sampson
I feel special since that I thought of that without knowing Battler made a blue truth about that...but it was fairly obvious, wasn't it?

[spoiler]Although Lambda and Bern could just be generalizing. "All of Battler's theories are wrong" could just be a hyperbole, and Battler could be right on that.

Another random thought: The servants suspected Rosa, so Nanjo and Kumasawa hid and the other servants made the servants' room like like a crime scene in order to throw off the culprit, in their case, Rosa. Later, possibly after twilights 4-6, the culprit discovered them in their hiding place, killed them, and moved their bodies.

Also, I consider Genji to be extremely neutral. He was not involved in the culprit's plans in any way directly, although he wouldn't do anything if he knew who the culprit was. I believe he has convinced himself that he is nothing but furniture and sees no value in his own life.

Excuse my random thoughts.[/spoiler]

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:19 pm
by scy
Well...
[spoiler]Dug up the Witch Tea Party:

Trollkastel: "...........Is it really alright for you to be so relaxed? Thanks to Ange, Battler has gotten all stirred up. I believe he's started a hot pursuit of Beato, making this game a big turn to my advantage, right...? I mean, didn't Battler solve almost all the mysteries up until now this time?"
λδ:"Huuh?! N~ot even close! Almost all of Battler's blue truth is off! Beato's lukewarm red is full of holes! ..." and then some more stuff blahblah.

Interestingly enough, Game 3 (and 4) are spared from λδ adding new Red Truths to the table. So, by that logic, the Game 3 loophole stands. So, oops, my mistake on which truths they crushed. I thought λδ went through to Game 3 as well.[/spoiler]

My personal theory is:
[spoiler]Kinzo is dead at the start (confirmed), Shannon and Kanon exist separately until days prior to the the start of events and the murder/death/whathaveyou of Shannon is the root cause of all the events. For all games, Nanjo is an accomplice and Kanon/Shannon refer to Yoshua dressed as whichever is needed.

The problem is, I can't figure an easy way to solve Game 3 or 4 with this logic; I need to replay them and get the alibis/movements down.

Game 1: Kanon and Jessica
1st Twilight: Chosen at random; Shannon is removed to allow Kanon to roam freely. Issue arises on Shannon's corpse being found with Kanon as a bystander but assuming that Shannon's actual corpse is available, her body can be used here. The face removed was probably to hide something that gave away actual time of death; other faces removed to remove the oddity of only one removed face.

2nd Twilight: The "locked door" was cut previously and put back together (tape, glue, etc. will all give the illusion of a locked door easily enough); the markings on the door are a bit harder but irrelevant, in my opinion, on the "who did it" aspect.

3rd Twilight: lolz

4th Twilight: Kinzo's corpse is burned.

5th Twilight: Kanon stabs himself to allow for the freedom to move; Nanjo and Jessica as accomplices allow this to happen. There is no Red Truth stopping Kanon from injuring himself or any proclamation that he is dead just one stating "he didn't die to a trap."

6th Twilight - 8th Twilight: If Jessica/Nanjo is an accomplice, one of them can place the note in Kinzo's room to separate the two groups. It's a simple task for Kanon to kill them all then.

Natushi's death: Shot in the one-on-one duel between her and Kanon at the conclusion.

Problems: Kanon's death status as of the End Roll; explained away by the Rokkenjima Explosion that kills everyone every game (sans Game 4) I suppose.

Game 2: Shannon and ... ? Genji is a possibility as he's missing by the end; George is also possible.

1st Twilight: Randomly chosen again; the Beatrice they see is Shannon and she murders them all sans Rosa. Why, I'm not sure.

2nd Twilight: Jessica killed, Kanon "vanishes" to never be seen again; allows for Shannon to move freely.

3rd Twilight: lolz

4th - 6th Twilight: Shannon's actual corpse is used, similar to Game 1, and George (and Gohda) are murdered for witnessing it.

7th - 8th Twilight: Unsure of reason yet but the servants are killed.

Everyone else: Rokkenjima Explosion.

Problems: A lot. I can't work around the Kanon Red Truth death declaration (occurs before the last two deaths if I recall) so my original theory of Shannon dies, Kanon portrays both has been adapted to "one of them dies" but that can't really work either since everything before October 4th is set in stone.

The only way around this is possibly timing of the deaths and the Red Truth (for example, Kumasawa and Nanjo are 7th-8th yet are shown dead before 4th-6th). If possible, this can work for Kanon completes everything and dies (suicide?) in time for the Red Truth declaration. It's flimsy so I need to work on that.

The other possibility is the involvement of Genji who finishes the murders for him. Or, perhaps, George kills Yoshua when the existence of Sayo's real body is found. Problem is, it's a lot of "what ifs" and other things and I can't remove all doubt.

Game 3 and 4 are a little tougher to work around ... :(

The one thing that has kept me from pursuing this logic further is ... sadly ... that I like a happy ending for George/Sayo and Jessica/Yoshua. This theory starts with the basis that George is fucked. I don't like that. But, it's the working theory I keep going back to is that Shannon and Kanon are involved. It helps that it satisfies the 17 people riddle as well.[/spoiler]

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:09 am
by Sampson

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:31 pm
by scy
Oh dear. Umineko Game 2.
[spoiler]Jessica isn't confirmed dead in Game 2. When listing the occupants of her "locked room" death, Jessica's corpse is listed in red but then Jessica (not as a corpse) is listed in red; beyond that, there's the double meaning behind "X's corpse" anyway when we look into fake body situations (which are allowed, see Game 5)*.

Here, the Red Truth is:

"When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room.
Whoops, the corpse of Jessica is also included."

The big thing here is the logical reading of it; the white can be ignored so we have:

"When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room.
Jessica is also included
."

But now ... we have an extra person. If only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo exist then how can Jessica be included? It just seems strange, y'know? Either Jessica is faking her death (Nanjo as accomplice) or Kanon is dead posed as Jessica and Jessica is in the room as one of the nine (probably 'Rosa', since she's specified as that later on) or escaped prior (which means an accomplice within to lock the window to make it appear as a locked room). This requires a rather literal meaning of the "only" line there but, previously, Beatrice had used a different wording for it and changes to this line instead.

The only real support for this outside of here is Kinzo is unable to repeat in red: "Among all of the people there, not one had multiple, different names'!!" This, however, could just refer to Shkannon or even just Sayo/Shannon and Yoshua/Kanon.

Beyond that, this leads to something else. "X's corpse" != "corpse of X" under this logic. That is, we can't assume discovering "Shannon's corpse" to mean that it is the "corpse of Shannon"; X's corpse is just a corpse that appears to be X but does not have to actually be X. Removing Shkannon theory for Game 2, Kanon can be dead here and posed as Jessica (body is never turned over and inspected so the truth of where Kanon died holds true) and Jessica can later be used as Shannon's corpse in the 5th Twilight OR Jessica is the killer and uses this as a means to gain mobility.

*Fake bodies are allowed under Knox Rule 10 from Game 5:
"Knox's 10th, it is forbidden for a character to disguise themselves as another without any CLUES!"[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Not sure what this means quite yet outside of giving another possible claim for every kill. Darn.

I will say I'm a little partial to the Sayo = Shannon = Kanon = Beatrice line of logic, if only for the fact that Ryukishi has said to not expect a happy ending. Barring the ultimate solution still having people die, this is the only other "NO GOOD END" outcome I can foresee. We get a complex web of relationships from this:

Sayo => Battler (originally? still?)
Shannon => George
Kanon => Jessica
Beatrice => Battler

That is, Sayo fell in love with Battler 6 years before the start of the game; Shannon didn't fall for George until 3 years after Battler left the family (3 years before the start). Kanon existed only 2 years before the start. What this gives is a possible scenario of Sayo/Beatrice's lost love in Battler and the impossible love of George and Jessica; it explains the rationale for completing the epitaph as the "furniture" existences of Shannon and Kanon can exist separately in the Golden Land AND all three of them can be with their respective lover.

But ... it's just stretching things to fit a situation.

Hmmm...it feels good to think about Umineko again.[/spoiler]

Edit: Working on an epitaph solution. I sort of have one but I can't fit some pieces together:
[spoiler]There are four people who solved the riddle; two of which are original and the other two pieced together a solution based off of theirs:

Eva, using a map, finds the "river" and thus the "village." She follows the first portion of the Epitaph:

"My beloved hometown, the sweetfish river running through it.
You who seek the Golden Land, follow its path downstream and seek the key.

If you follow the river downstream, you will find a village.
In the village, look for the shore the two will tell you of.
There sleeps the key to the Golden Land."

Rosa finds the "river" and "village" through checking the ten steps; she follows the central part of the epitaph:

"At the first twilight, you shall lift up as sacrifice the six chosen by the key.
At the second twilight, those who remain shall tear apart the two who are close.
At the third twilight, those who remain shall praise my honorable name on high.
At the fourth twilight, gouge the head and kill.
At the fifth twilight, gouge the chest and kill.
At the sixth twilight, gouge the stomach and kill.
At the seventh twilight, gouge the knee and kill.
At the eighth twilight, gouge the leg and kill.
At the ninth twilight, the witch shall be revived and none shall be left alive.
At the tenth twilight, the journey shall end and you should reach the village of gold."

Battler and Erika solve the riddle in Game 5; Battler does so through Rosa's method and Erika through Eva's.

Ultimately, Eva and Rosa both find the "village" from their method.

The important "clue" of Rosa's is the wordplay involved in solving the ten step journey; without "黄金の郷", the solution cannot be found.

"黄金の郷" = "The village of Kogane" = "The village of Gold"

And, well, we can find a Kogane on a map; there's no "rivers" that we can use really but ... let's look at it this way. The "river" runs through the "hometown" and the "village" and we can find a Kogane Station. Near a shore. A railway station near a shore.

So, is our "river" a railway?

Let's use that and Rosa's methodology of the ten steps. Kogane Station is part of the Muoran Line (yay Wikipedia). Counting up from Kogane we have:

10) Kogane 黄金
9) Mareppu 稀府
8) Kita-Funaoka 北舟岡
7) Date-Mombetsu 伊達紋別
6) Nagawa 長和
5) Usu 有珠
4) Tōya 洞爺
3) Toyoura 豊浦
2) Ōkishi 大岸
1) Rebun 礼文

Well, this is meaningless ... is it? In Game 4, there's mention of a Rebun (礼文). In fact, quite a few mentions of it. So, a red herring or a possible truth?

Let's take a step back. Eva's reasoning was that through the "rivers" and "sweetfish" she could figure out via a map what the "village" was. Likewise, through the steps, Rosa could find the "village" in the epitaph. This is where the two collide. For Eva, if she made the railway connection and made sweetfish into the cars themselves, I'm still stuck at how she got the location right. The one big thing that helps is sweetfish are a Hokkaido thing so it lends some credibility to Rebun.

So, for now, I'm satisfied with the connection here; Rosa's hint gets me a connection between the "homeland" and the "village" and Eva is able to reach the "village" via a map and, assumedly, some idea of what the "homeland" could be. Using both, I could find Rebun - Kogane on the Muoran Railway Line.

Now, one must find the key; upon finding the "village", both could find the "key" needed. I don't really get this part; I've played with the " " but I've failed. However, looking at Kogane Station "黄金駅" gives something else; we know of "Kogane" so the "Station" is useless ... is it? We can use that as the "key."

So, with the "key" in hand, Eva knows to be elsewhere to use it so ... let's go step by step here. First off, we have to find a starting point of the puzzle. Eva realizes by "homeland" that can only mean one place; likewise, Battler and Erika come to the same conclusion and are shown standing in front of somewhere on the island. If Rebun is our "homeland" then we have:

礼 - ceremony, amongst other things.
文 - sentence, amongst other things.

Not much except ... "ceremony" has one location on the map I can think of: the Chapel. Furthermore, "chapel" is "礼拝堂" which helps a bit for the logic. Likewise, "sentence" is chosen for the use of it in the epitaph.

Game 2 and 4 have the chapel shown with a rather unique "sentence" on it: "This door is only opened at a probability of one-in-a-quadrillion."

Now, this doesn't really help much. Hell, I got this far just from Game 2 and "MBTQ." But, Game 5 gave us Battler telling us how long the initial word is: 11 or 13 letters. And, well, "quadrillion" is 11 letters.

"Q U A D R I L L I O N"

I kind of stalemate here though. My key (駅) must get me something to remove 6 letters from this (hence the 6 sacrifices) with two adjacent letters (to tear apart the two). There's one other hint related to this in that the "key" may only be 5 letters; that is, probably a word with repeating letters. So, a double "i" or double "l" word.

If we remove 6 letters, we're left with 5 letters. The 3rd Twilight suggests that maybe we form a name out of what remains. As I haven't removed anything yet, I can't do anything with this step. Oh well.

Now, 4th - 8th Twilight are 5 steps of "gouging." Erika and Battler come to this conclusion in Game 5 that you remove each of the letters until none remain.

In addition, Game 5 "shows" Erika fiddling with some "mechanism" so there does exist something that "gouging" refers to. I'm going with the idea of probably buttons to be pushed. Alternatively, the stakes may be necessary for some device hence why only 2 Sisters act in the Games where the Gold is found (since 5 are used to operate the device).

So, we have some "device" that is manipulated to point you towards the gold. But, it seems we've circumvented something. Rosa's idea was of a ten step journey to reach the "village" from the "homeland." Well, yes, I used that already but there's something bigger here. If we assume that "homeland" refers to Rebun which refers to the Chapel, then we can also use the "village" as Kogane which can refer to the "Gold."

1) Chapel
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10) Gold

Currently, I can't figure out something that allows both Rosa AND Eva to find the Gold based off what they used. That is, Eva can use the individual stations along the way to reach the Gold; Rosa's method was something that even Battler could figure out so I can't really assume he just happened to know all the stations involved. So, at a loss here. Plugging in the stations doesn't help immensely unless we translate them all and we get some landmarks but, again, that doesn't really "fit" for both Eva and Rosa's deductions.

Beyond that, steps 1-3 are already done if we assume this (1st is the -6 letters, 2nd is removing the two close together, 3rd is making a name out of them). Maybe there's a clue within the children? I mean, there are 5 in total and it matches the missing steps; it fits also with Kinzo's "anger" at how Maria's name was spelled.

Perhaps knowing the "key" would help. For all I know, they could simply be directions that point out which ways to go so all that is needed from either is the "key" and the "sentence" to get the directions from the Chapel. Oh dear.[/spoiler]

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:37 am
by Sampson
More random thoughts:

[spoiler]I really only want Kyrie to be the culprit/mastermind because I like her. Jessica and Kanon only got involved in the plot since it's hard for her to do much in Ep 2.

I don't like Shkannon for various reasons. Mainly because I don't like the idea of Kanon running around acting like Shannon. Although there aren't many others that can be dead before the game begins.

As for motive, Kyrie's I don't know. She may be in it for the money, but since she dies in just about every game as far as I know, that's not likely. Maybe she wants to baffle the police, like Wargrave in And Then There Were None. Or she's disgusted with the whole family.

Jessica has angst. She probably is fed up with the whole family obsessing over money and all that. Kanon is loyal to her and helps her.

Nanjo is just being forced into all this by having his family being threatened.

I really don't want so many people to be involved, but...[/spoiler]

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 2:09 am
by scy
About that:
[spoiler]I think the pivotal part of Game 1 is to figure out exactly who was the one faking; but, with the way the Red Truth is structured, I'm more inclined to believe that it was Shannon since her corpse's status isn't verified.

As for the total amount of murderers, a few of the games point to multiple killers. There's probably only one who's killing as the epitaph states (which in my theories is Sayo/Yoshua) and then others based on the situation (retaliation, fear, etc.).

As for Nanjo, it's probably not threatening his family so much as it is paying for his sick grandchild. But, yes, I agree that he's implicated somehow. For that matter, though, Genji, Shannon, and Kanon have to as well. Really, I can't see a way to not implicate all the servants at some point (not in the sense of always involved but as a Game-by-Game basis).

As for motives, I'd like to fit that after-the-fact. It's not hard to get a motive for anyone (money/greed, love, etc.) but I will note that "Without love, it cannot be seen" is probably a big hint towards the motive.

Really though, the idea of "killing for love" following the epitaph boils down to the -on servants due to the Fukuin raising/brainwashing/etc. I can't really see Jessica or George falling for the epitaph. This, however, doesn't exclude the possibility of killing for love and using the epitaph to hide the crimes but still.

Plus, Fukuin "training" for potentially becoming Beatrice seems like a nice way around Knox's 10th as it is "proof" that Sayo can pretend to be someone else.

Of course, how this works with Shkanon I don't know. I don't want to use Shkanon unless I have to but it's hard to work around the Erika Game 6 paradox.

Unless, of course, we assume that Erika starts each Game dead therefore adding her doesn't raise the count. That or she's just a split personality of someone already on the island so she's not real (and, again, no +1 from that ... just confused looks). I like the idea of her starting each Game dead as it gives a potential corpse for use as a body double.[/spoiler]

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 2:19 am
by Sampson
But...
[spoiler]Wouldn't this disprove that:
Furudo Erika had no influence on any of Beato's games before now.

It depends on how you read it, I guess. If it means Erika had absolutely nothing to do with the games 1-4, then she can't be used as a body double. If it means Erika did not consciously influence games 1-4, then she can.

But it's the red truth, so it's impossible to tell.

And I agree about assigning motives after the fact; it's just fun to hypothesize about them at this point.[/spoiler]