Golden Deer Pub Community Forums

@ Game 2, Key to the Chapel Mystery
[spoiler] THIS was far better than the anime. I remember this in the anime. I really was disappointed since it just seemed like Battler was throwing a bunch of darts blindly and hoping to get lucky. He didn't seem to be "thinking".

It's true that the words said between the VN and the anime are exactly the same, but it's the presentation and the scene and how he pauses in the VN and then gets super-confident again and delivers his "turn over the chessboard" attack.

BTW, I dunno if the game records the red truths like it does the other stuff but I'm keeping track of them INCLUDING the words that Beatrice doesn't say.

Further, Jessica still remainds suspect. She was in the room with Maria that night. It would have been easy for her to take the envelope and return it. No problem.[/spoiler]

Started Sakura Taisen V a couple days ago and put ~4 hours of gameplay into it.

This is better than I expected... aside from all the present Anime/VN clichés XD
But, that's Sakura Taisen for ya'.

Fuck... there goes some of my theories

[spoiler]- No one exists in this room except all of you. All of you refers to Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, and Shannon
- When Jessica’s corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica’s room.
- (Whoops, the corpse of) Jessica is also included
- Therefore, both in the case of Jessica’s room and the case in this servants’ room, no humans exist that you were not aware of. No one is hiding.


I thought maybe that the corpse of Jessica was really Kanon but Jessica is definitely in that room, then. But, I like that she didn't put "corpse" in red. That's VERY interesting. :3 Could possibly NOT be dead.

*sigh* But it also destroys some of my theories involving hidden closets. I was so psyched when Battler thought of it... T-T and it was destroyed so mercilessly.

I was even holding onto "well maybe jessica, alive and well, IS hiding in the room and you're trying to trick me!" but she HAD to say it, didn't se "no one is hiding" ...... >_< *goes back to the game*


- You are incompetent! *laughing*

That's an interesting red truth since I really just don't think it's true at all! [/spoiler]

Hmhmhm.
[spoiler]My favorite theory I've heard about that "corpse of Jessica" is that it could mean that Jessica is hidden in the room as one of the others there (notably, Rosa is considered for this role due to the 'Rosa' red truths*); Knox's Rules do not disallow it and the Red Truths permit it.

In short, you can read the two Red Truths back-to-back as stating there exist only 9 people; within those 9 people, there are really 10. The phrasing of "Whoops, the corpse of Jessica is also included" lends itself to not mean "There are 9 people. I mean, there are actually 10 people" but, rather, "There are 9 people. 10 people are here within those 9."

Edit: Since this is probably confusing logic, keep in mind that Jessica's corpse is part of the Red Truth. When these 9 people found Jessica's corpse, only these 9 were there. Oops, when Jessica's corpse was found, Jessica was also there. Not her corpse, mind you, for this time. That is:

Jessica's corpse != corpse of Jessica

What this gives us is an argument to be made that 'X's corpse' can mean "a corpse that looks like X" while 'corpse of X' literally means the corpse of that person. In short, when Jessica's corpse is found, the corpse of Jessica is also there means that Jessica finds a corpse that appears to be Jessica.

Beato's use of the two merely proves that no one is hiding--it does not disallow someone to be there in plain sight that you're unaware of (i.e., disguised). Jessica is there and you know she's there since her body is there; whether or not that body is really her is irrelevant for this fact to be true. She can exist and you know it but you may mistake where she exists at. I'd like to note this is further proved by the fact that Jessica's body is never checked; she is assumed to be Jessica based on location, dress, and appearance from her back.

Edit: Part of this logic train is predicated upon the fact of the difference in use of words. "There exist only these 7" versus "Only these 9 were here" have two different meanings.

*Conversely, some people argue that 'Rosa' is used to differentiate between the "Good Witch" Rosa and the "Bad Witch" Rosa that Maria spouts on about later. I like working with the idea of disguises since it seems Umineko's solution will involve some trickery of that sort (and is permissible by virtue of the Fukuin school for Shannon and the cosplaying for Jessica).[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I actually think I was able to follow that, but with it being 2am, let me get some sleep and return to this post in the morning before I chat with you about it and try to fully comprehend it. ... I say that and I'm going to take a stab at this anyways...

The gist of what you're saying though is

-When Jessica’s corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica’s room.
-(Whoops, the corpse of) Jessica is also included

That the first red truth is not "corrected" by the second truth but is rather it's own seperate truth or actually a "rewrite"? Well rewrite isn't the best word to use - more like a second truth within the first truth.

When the corpse of what-might-be-Jessica is found Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in the room.

However, Jessica is also in the room - but disguised as one of the following: Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo, but because it's a "rewrite" it has no effect on the first truth.

Is that essentially what you're trying to say?

So, we can come up with this scenario: Jessica, the culprit, goes on a pretend rampage through Beato's room and triggers an asthma attack (or maybe even fakes one). Lures Kanon into her room where she kills him, then she kills Gohda. She sets up Kanon as a closed room, then dresses up as Gohda and plays his part when they are investigating the room, which then makes all the red truth statements correct?

Not that I like this theory but it's just to make sure I grasp this concept. Meh, I'll recheck this tomorrow morning.[/spoiler]

Hm...
[spoiler]Sounds like you're over thinking it with the "rewrite" idea. It's rather straightforward.

-When Jessica’s corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica’s room.

This Red Truth tells us that when Jessica's corpse is found, these 9 people are in the room at the time. These are the only 9 people here.

-(Whoops, the corpse of) Jessica is also included

This truth is meant to clarify that Jessica's corpse is also there. However, the interesting part is that, "corpse of" is left out of the truth--that is, it cannot be stated in Red that the corpse of Jessica is also in the room. We have this then, literally:

-When Jessica’s corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica’s room. Jessica is also included.

Essentially, Jessica's corpse is found with 9 people present--these are the only 9 people in the room. However, Jessica is also present within these 9 people. That is what the two truths boil down to.

What you do with that is up to you; of the various fan theories, my favorite (and pretty much the most commonly accepted one) is that Jessica is alive in the room and is not her body. After that, things get a little different but I like the Jessica/Rosa theory if only for an explanation as to why Rosa becomes 'Rosa' after this.

I'm not sure why you chose Gohda as your example to see if you have it logically. Rosa makes more sense of the group (and it makes it all the more ironic with the wolf in sheep's clothing bit later*). Though, I wager it doesn't matter too much for seeing the logic of it.

Interestingly enough, depending on how skeptical you are, the "Whoops" can't really be taken seriously either. That is:

"When Jessica’s corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, Nanjo, and Jessica were in Jessica’s room."

and

"When Jessica’s corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica’s room. Jessica is also included."

These two have different meanings; the first tells us that there are only 10 people here. The second tells us that there are only 9--also, Jessica is there. Logically (semantically, and other words ending in ly) these two are not equivalent; they're similar, but not equal. One says "only 10" and the other says "only 9 and another included."

*Incidentally, most seem to overlook that Wolf in Sheep's Clothing is traditionally more than just being one within the group (i.e., killer hiding with the potential victims). It's a literal case of a wolf dressed as a sheep; the killer dressed as one of their victims. Whether it's reading too much into it or not is up to you, I suppose, but I like the thought of it in that vein since I'm fully in belief that someone, somewhere, pretends to be someone else in the course of Umineko.
[/spoiler]

Later game spoiler (Game 4, I believe):
[spoiler]If I recall, Kinzo is left unable to say that during this chain of events that no one was not using someone else's name. That is, that someone went around with a name not associated to themselves.

However, this could be a red herring and merely refers to Sayo/Shannon and Kanon's real name (left out since that's Game 6) or Shkannon itself instead of, say, Jessica dressed up as someone else.[/spoiler]

Well...finished Narcissu yesterday (I'm so slow, I'm sorry!), and

[spoiler]I found the ending to be really abrupt.
What happens with the MC?

Narcissu 2 is already looking very good, though.
I will definitely finish that one soon.

But, if I get this right, in the prologue, you are Himeko, Chihiro is your sister (big or little?) and Yuka is your best friend, right?[/spoiler]

[spoiler]While Knox doesn't disallow poisons, I'd be a little skeptical to use any without being able to name one that could've been used in 1986 Japan.

The issue with Jessica being the body is, then, you need to explain where Kanon disappeared to. He's not accounted for in this room but he is confirmed to have been killed in there. Typically, Shkannon supporters use that Red Truth to mean that the name, identity, and existence of Kanon was ended here with the murder of Jessica (which then means we need to prove that the two Red Truths mean Jessica is present in the room and dead which is ironically harder to prove than her being alive).[/spoiler]

Two other notes (later game spoilers):
[spoiler]Due to the existence of the Rokkenjima Explosion, why are there any murders at all? These two have to be done by individuals that are unrelated OR the latter are done to cover the former.

Since Featherine created Games 3 - 6 based off of what she knew from Game 1 - 2 ... there's some details that come up that _she should not know_ For example, how could she write about Beatrice's death in 1967? How about Natushi's first child's death? There's quite a lot to wonder how she knows if she's not a member of the Ushiromiya household[/spoiler]

Well...

[spoiler]
My best guess is that the murderer is trying to psychologically torture Battler by killing everyone around him. After all, he lives to the final twilight in all of the games but two, and in one he only dies on the ninth twilight.

After all, there's these red truths:
Ushiromiya Battler has a sin
Because of your sin, people die.
Due to your sin, a great many humans on this island die.

So I'm guessing that the murders are Battler's punishment for his sin. The explosion may be set up simply to throw off the police. The murderer might find the murders to be "personal," since the sin doesn't concern anyone else. That doesn't stop them from killing off Battler's family, but they probably see them as tools for a greater purpose.[/spoiler]

@Kanon (Game 2)
[spoiler]That handles where the body went from the room but not his disappearance as an entity from there on out (barring a simple "he go poof"). The body that lies on the floor is confirmed injured (though not confirmed dead; the lungs are pierced at the very least) which then questions how did, assuming it is Jessica, this injury occur (especially if she killed Kanon and wounded herself for those of that theory).

Edit: What I mean by his body needing to be accounted for is that for what reason is he removed from the scene? To use the corpse later? His body is never seen again so _why_ is it removed? Without that answer, the idea of removing it from the scene is incomplete or at least a weaker argument than Kanon's body is in the room dressed up as Jessica. The only reason for removal and not using the body is to give the illusion of Kanon as the killer (which seems to be the Game's theme with 'him' later killing Kumasawa and Nanjo so it's not necessarily wrong).

There's also questions pertaining the validity of the locked room (hence why Rosa is suspect, she checks the windows and is given the key to check the door; it's never said she doesn't lock the windows when she checks them nor that she even uses the key handed to her to lock the door) but that's another issue entirely. And pretty easy to solve, anyway.

As for Shkannon ... perhaps. It could be a giant Red Herring that Kanon and Shannon are never seen together from Battler's perspective. There's other proof, however, and this is no longer the giant flag of proof it originally was. But, I don't like Shkannon either if only for the fact I want the finale to resolve with Jessica x Kanon and George x Shannon.[/spoiler]

@Other Games I Brought Up~
[spoiler]We can make the argument that Battler's existence itself is the sin--there's no proof that the murders happen because of something he himself did and he needs to suffer for it. For instance, Kyrie theories revolve around his existence as the son of Asumu to fuel the familial hatred; Battler himself does no sin but he himself is a sin. I've even read a rather poignant theory revolving around a living Asumu that plans the murder of everyone over the course of events (Asumu's child is taken, given to Kinzo => Kanon; Kyrie's child is taken, given to Rudolph => Battler) which uses Battler's existence as the sin.

For further use of it, 07151129 from Game 3 is key; Battler remarks that 0715 is his birthday but 1129 he's unaware of the meaning of. Further, 07151129 is the name of the sender of the letters in Game 4, if I recall, to some of the families. The best argument I've seen of 07151129 is that it translates to Battler's Birth: 07/15, 11:29 AM. Another strange one, though less so with Featherine's existence (notably, her name), is that 07151129 = 26 (add each individually) and one can translate Asumu's name to involve 26 (it's part of that Asumu mastermind theory).

While I do agree that the bomb is "possibly" a way to cover the murderer's tracks, I'm not sure I fully agree that the murderer and the bomber to be the same person. It seems odd that, in the games that the murders are ceased, the bomb still kills everyone; it seems odd that the Illusion of Witches is used at all when the psychological impact of murders is enough.

To be honest, the bigger puzzle I have is the Featherine issue; she is a normal human who uses that pen-name. She is also someone that Ange does not recognize at all. But, this woman wrote Games 3 - 6 based off the knowledge of Game 1 - 2 ... but she uses facts NOT involved in those two games that are family-kept secrets (Rosa's story of Beatrice, Beatrice dying in 1967, Natushi's first child, etc.). Who is she?[/spoiler]