Visual Novels

[Maxine MagicFox]

[Sampson]

[Maxine MagicFox]

[scy]

Not angry or anything, just otherwise busy. Job hunt, StarCraft II, etc.

[spoiler]I never said anything about Ookonogi inheriting the money, just that he profits heavily in the event of Ange's death. There's a difference.

As for the Amakusa scene in question, it's a phone call between him and Ookonogi and it's in regards to what to do with her in the Kasumi confrontation. I was pretty certain it was Game 4 but if you can't find it then I must be mistaken. Though, I don't remember a Rokkenjima trip in Game 5 or 6 for 1998 Ange off the top of my head.

Regardless of where this scene is, Game 4 has enough hints towards Ookonogi profiting from the deaths in 1998 and that Amakusa is his hitman.[/spoiler]

Since I forget where this falls in, it's a catch-all so assume up to Game 6 in regards to Ookonogi.
[spoiler]Ookonogi is deeply in-bed with the Eva-side of the family (more-or-less, the close family friend like Nanjo and Kinzo ... just for Eva). The deaths of the Ushiromiya family causes a lot of uproar in their respective businesses and gives Ookonogi an opportunity to make a lot of money. The same applies to Ange and Kasumi dying.

Though, Ange also had the whole "SHE'S IN THE WAY OF WORLD PEACE" motive for killing her so ... yeah. As logical as that train of thought is, anyway.[/spoiler]

Game 7
[spoiler]Doesn't Featherine have to know if she's the author of Game 3 and 4?

I hope the young strapping lad is just young Kinzo. I would like to think we're done with EVEN MORE NEW CHARACTERS. At least, I hope so >>. The idea of it being Van Dine is bothersome as Van Dine seriously limits the scope of Umineko if I remember his rules.

Though, maybe it's TMF19YA. But that unfortunately kills the "Kanon = Asumu-Battler" or "Jessica = Asumu-Battler" theories.[/spoiler]

Sakutarou
[spoiler]So, we're presented with something interesting with his revival. This is why finding him in the boat house is a big deal. There's an earlier Red Truth from Beatrice about her being unable to revive Sakutarou with her Endless Magic. However, Ange-Beatrice could revive him with the Endless Magic.

Why? Because Ange had his new vessel and Beatrice was working with the broken doll. This is probably why Eva-Beatrice only has three Siesta sisters since the fourth is broken. Endless Magic can't work if their vessels are destroyed.

So ... how does this work with human bodies? Endless Magic is demonstrated (and talked about) as means of reviving people and killing them over and over. But ... a broken vessel can't be revived. Is this a hint towards only working with falsifying deaths? Or perhaps any damaged dead body can't be revived?

Just food for thought in case you miss the significance of Sakutarou's revival.[/spoiler]

[Sampson]

Game 7
[spoiler]Well, she talks about her "theories" with Ange. Of course, it's just as likely she knew the truth all along. But, then again, I view her as an observer who sees the games as they unfold, write them down, and upload them to the internet.

And as for Van Dine, if they do implement the rules, I'm not sure how they'll work around the third one, which is the one that says "No love interests."

Actually, that makes sense if you consider that Bern's in charge now. Well, technically it's Featherine, but still.[/spoiler]

[Maxine MagicFox]

[scy]

.
[spoiler]There's a vast difference between game world revivals (the vase, the candy) and a meta-world revival (Sakutarou). Sakutarou being revived in the meta-world requires his vessel, much like the missing Siesta sister (or the two dead Game 3 Purgatory Sisters). Of course, the logical counterpoint is the existence of the demons (Ronove, Gaap) regardless of their game board states (Genji, Nanjo). Of course, that could be proof we have the wrong Meta-world==Game-world connections.

Maria's denial of Sakutarou's existence causes her to not see Sakutarou in the meta-world, much like how Beatrice's existence is based upon belief. That's how magic in the world of Umineko works. Belief. Maria's denial of Sakutarou (due to seeing him die) isn't what disallows his revival, it disallows her seeing him. The scene you point out is the proof of it anyway; Sakutarou can exist regardless of the denial of his existence--he just can't be seen.

As for the interrupted truth, there's many ways to interpret it. The doll made could be the only Sakutarou created if the Red Truth ends as "...the only one in the world!" and there could still exist more of "him". How? Another doll like that that isn't Sakutarou doesn't qualify (i.e., doll mass produced for sale). The Red there is limited (specifies made by Rosa AND for Maria) which allows a loophole like this.

But, there's nothing to say that happened and I'm of the persuasion that it is in fact an interruption due to the second one made by Rosa.

And, for the record, I'm fairly certain Sakutarou on the boat isn't a "theory." It's a fact alluded to by the game itself in Game 4. It's never spelled out directly but it's definitely the conclusion to be drawn from the events and how things happen.

Also, Ryukishi oversaw the anime. I sincerely doubt he'd allow them to do something like placing Sakutarou in the scene on the boat without his approval. Despite all the fuck ups in both Higurashi and Umineko, none of them ever made things up like this. They're all faulty by omission of details / fucking up the details, not through adding things of their own.[/spoiler]

[Maxine MagicFox]

[spoiler]*Nods* I understand the second paragraph. It seems like you are trying to convince me there so I hope I did not clumsily fuck up my words and make you think I didn't understand that much, but you then state that I made proof of that anyway ^_^; yes, I got that.

But I disagree with the first paragraph - it still has to follow the same rules, because we are often taught these rules on the game board (such as about the anti-magic toxin). Also: Gaap as Nanjo's couterpart? Nanjo was still alive? I'm hoping I misread that. I would say Gaap is Natsuhi's counterpart before Nanjo. Again, I hope I just misread that, though I'd be fascinated by the reasoning of that ^_^

*nods* the more I think about the Rosa remade Sakutarou theory the more I like it, and you're right, it does fit. There's even a scene right before Rosa wakes up (to be tortured to death by Maria) where Sakutarou is trying to help her, but he keeps hurting her. I'm still not really why in the scene he accidentally hurts Rosa. At the time I had theorized that her mere rejection of him was hurting her because it was hurting the half of her that loved her daughter, but in the end the half of her that hated Maria won out, therefore he disappeared and set up the next scene. Maybe this still fits if she still remade him. Maybe the fact that she had not given it to Maria yet... she was still fighting with herself? Hrrrm....

As for anime: I really... don't care about the anime. Even if Ryu did help in some way. I don't know the conversations or anything and I'd just rather stick to what the novel portrays. [/spoiler]

On another note: I've started the 5th game up. Battler has just stepped into the game.

[scy]

.
[spoiler]Again, the meta-world beings and a game-world revival are different. One is reviving a "person" and the other is reviving an "object." More than that, the game-world revivals are displays of belief in magic; similarly, the meta-world cases are ones where they can't exist when there's proof they shouldn't (i.e., destruction of their vessels). As you said, anti-magic toxin. In this case, the vessels being destroyed shatters the ability to believe otherwise.

Associating them as the exact same ruling is a bit limited, in my opinion. Especially with proof otherwise (Sakutarou, Siesta 556, Game 3 Purgatory Sisters that for some reason I can't remember which two were killed). Kinzo works as well for this. He can exist in the meta-world and magic scenes given that his existence as dead isn't known (Game 4); once he was declared dead, his existence ceases.

Though, I suppose it's a bit strong to say that the vessel is ABSOLUTELY required but, as far as dispelling any doubts, the vessel is a core part of it. Especially with such cases as Game 2 Kanon. So, it's more of a "destruction of the vessel causes doubt" than a "the vessel is required for the existence." Ange finding the second Sakutarou allows his revival since, well, he's no longer destroyed (and/or Rosa stopped denying him, if you want to go that route ... though it's honestly more just the doll not being in pieces).

Edit: It does make more sense this way, especially considering all the uses of it have been with fixable objects (so undoing the death makes sense). It still gives us proof for the use of faking deaths as an explanation, though there's enough proof elsewhere that this isn't really needed for it.

...so, yeah, I was thinking of it the wrong way (A then B, blahblahblah logical fallacies yay).

As for Nanjo and Gaap, it's due to Gaap's role in the game and her description. She is a guest to the island (which rules out Natsuhi) that does not bear the family emblem (which rules out the entire visiting main family). Her role is the disappearance of the corpses on the island and to otherwise toy with the deaths. To be honest, making this connection by Game 4 alone is pretty hard but you should have it narrowed down to Nanjo, Kyrie, and Hideyoshi based off her description alone. Kyrie is the logical gender choice but Nanjo is a more logical role choice (and fits the mythological demon Gaap more).

What I meant about the deaths was that any game with Ronove or Gaap in it, they exist past who they're associated with. The same can be said for Virgilia and Kumasawa as well. Honestly, I think it's more just that there's no 100% connection to give the doubt to deny their meta-world existence. Well, except Virgilia and Kumasawa ...[/spoiler]

Game 5:
[spoiler]It helps a lot more there, as well, when Kinzo is brought back as an existence when Battler's Blue Truths allow for him to exist. Once Battler makes it capable for Kinzo to have existed and left the sealed room, despite the Red Truth of him being dead, he could exist again. Game 5 (and 6) have a few moments of "this hurts my head T.T"

In regards to Gaap=Nanjo, this game has the extra proof that narrows down who it could be. Someone who is just visiting the island and knows of the Kinzo plot. That leaves very few people (notably, one).[/spoiler]

[Maxine MagicFox]

[spoiler]Awww, I get the Gaap thing. Ok. ^_^ In that case you're probably right. No, I... did not read the description [/spoiler]

[Sampson]

You know (Ep6 spoilers),
[spoiler]If Gaap is Nanjo, that would mean Gaap (who's a girl, right?) has Nanjo (a man) as a vessel. Doesn't that make figuring out whether Zepar or Furfur is a trap irrelevant? Let's say Kanon is Zepar's vessel. If Gaap is Nanjo, this isn't definite proof Zepar is male.

Although in Ep 6 it was said that the trap twins' vessels were the pieces of the brooch...which were held by Kanon and Shannon.

All of this points to Shkannon somehow...[/spoiler]

[scy]

Game 6
[spoiler]I wasn't aware there was any debate as to which of the two is male and which was female. It was always which is Shannon and which is Kanon, not so much their individual genders (barring "male one = Kanon, female one = Shannon" trains of thought). Or maybe there was some talk about it but I overlooked it?

Honestly, there's not too many options that satisfy Gaap's vessel as visitor to the island (everyone but Krauss, Natsuhi, Jessica, and the servants), doesn't bear the eagle (Kyrie, Hideyoshi, Nanjo), and is privy to the Kinzo plot (Nanjo).

Kumasawa may fit but ... then whowas[s]phone[/s]Virgila?[/spoiler]

[Sampson]

Game 6
[spoiler]Well, I'm sure a good amount of people want to find out if they were masturbating to a guy or girl.

But I guess this means the male isn't necessarily Kanon and vice versa.

As for the game itself, I wonder if there's any good way to solve the closed room at the end without using Shkannon. There's always Kanon=Kinzo, but...

I guess this means Shannon was alive during Ep 6 in the next room over, unless the other five people were willingly hiding a corpse or something. Which is strange, since there is that red about how only Kanon claim his name. But there is still the possibility that Shannon just killed Kanon and didn't bother to disguise herself as him.
[/spoiler]

[scy]

Game 6
[spoiler]I've always wondered what the "only Kanon can claim his name" means. Like, if I were to appear dressed as Kanon but never claimed I was Kanon, does it violate the Red? If someone sees me dressed as Kanon and assumes I'm Kanon, does this violate the Red?

There's also the Kanon=Asumu-Battler theory which allows him to leave under the Battler name. There's so many X = Asumu-Battler theories ... >>

And, as far as H-doujins are concerned, their real genders are irrelevant~[/spoiler]

[noodles]

\o/