Visual Novels

[Sampson]

For those that are interesting, is a link to a George culprit theory on the AnimeSuki forums. It contains Ep6 spoilers, for those (i.e., Maxine) that haven't read it yet.

[scy]

Whilst interesting, I was kind of hoping for some explanations as to the "howdunnit" as opposed to the "whydunnit." The "whydunnit" is something we can find a reason for practically everyone.

Except Gohda.

Fucking useless Gohda.

[spoiler]Which means he did it.[/spoiler]

...though, to be honest, the "howdunnit" is probably an elaborate scheme of red herrings and false alibis anyway so any conclusion from that doesn't really point to the mastermind.

[spoiler]Also, being left with the womenz is probably the lamest reason to mass murder your family. And Eva and Hideyoshi aren't even as crazypsycho like Krauss and Natsuhi about things.

Not that "YOU PROMISED TO COME BACK FOR ME ON A WHITE HORSE" is a better mass murder reason, mind you.[/spoiler]

Quite frankly, the culprits that make the most sense from a "whydunnit" perspective are George, Jessica, Shannon, and Kanon. The adults are are thieving, conniving, and otherwise despicable people at times ... and therefore eliminated as suspects. If any of these four are responsible, I wouldn't even be remotely close to surprised.

[spoiler]Truthfully, I wouldn't be surprised if it's George and Jessica together (George as tactical planning, Jessica as gettingshitdone) doing things. It also makes it a lot easier to explain why the game's work out the way they do (Game 1 and 2 can be easily explained as Jessica/Kanon, George/Shannon doing it all, for example) if they're in on things together. Game 3 and 4 are a bit more complicated but work out well in a "alright, you kill half of them and I'll get the other half" kind of way. Throw in some hijinks (i.e., people fighting back) and any unplanned George/Jessica deaths make sense.

Slap on Shkannon and Shannon/Kanon as a sacrifice makes a lot more sense too, though I still don't want to use Shkannon if only for the eventual everyone goes home happy ending.[/spoiler]

[Sampson]

[Maxine MagicFox]

Motives are easy to concoct. I agree with Scy (not that I'm reading any of those spoilers) but seriously - the HOW is more important than the "why". Pffft, the motive could simply have been "CAUSE I FUCKING WANTED TO, THAT'S WHY!!" And it's not like the Ushiromiya family has a reputation for being all warm and fuzzy anyways.

[scy]

For what it's worth, Maxine, the first spoiler I posted has no actual spoilers at all. The one's here will though~

The "Whydunnit" is ignoring the mystery in and of itself. Rather, using the "why" to answer the "who" is completely short-sighted. It's incompetence at it's best. Likewise, using just the "how" is completely short-sighted and gross incompetence. The "theory" as outlined isn't much of a theory at all. You are no closer to solving anything after finishing reading it. No problems are solved. No loopholes closed. Nothing. Answering "why" gets you nowhere by itself.

Edit: And I do read AnimeSuki at times and I find the whole "dodging the Red is easy" to be laughable; the "why" is the easiest part of Umineko since you can make shit up and it works because it's practically irrelevant due to how little we know concretely.

Ignoring the "Howdunnit" is a copout for being lazy and/or stupid. Yes, it's not completely necessary to know every last trick but if you just find the "Whydunnit", you're proving you learned nothing from Game 5 (and cue irony for the "proof why I don't need to think of the how").

[spoiler]i.e., finding a solution over finding the solution. Anti-fantasy vs Mystery. What we should've learned from the answer arcs thus far is it's not enough to know how OR why things were done. You need both. Neither is more important than the other, though the individual strength of the why is arguably vastly weaker than the how (since, as Maxine notes, it can be practically anything); still, without both, you have nothing.

As it stands, the theory outlined is a "George could've had a motive therefore he is the culprit" without any proof towards doing anything. It's completely flawed. Even Erika's Game 5 trial was constructed better than that.

Without a solid answer to the how and why (...and maybe when), it's just a stab in the dark under the guise of a theory.[/spoiler]

And, Shkannon
[spoiler]There's also the "Battler never sees the both of them together" idea. It gains some strength when the Shannon and Kanon are never seen together with the detective's perspective is a constant. Though I think that's Ryukishi trolling us.

As for Game 3, the solution to the locked room circle is either that one of them isn't dead yet (hence the arrangement of the bodies and keys) or that the key is dropped off after-the-fact. It all depends on how we take "dead" in the Red since faking death seems to allow it to be simultaneously true and false. Even then, nothing prohibits a body from being used twice (though you have to believe Shkannon to get the "6 dead" Red work-around).

As for the final Red of Game 6, the wording is pretty much as stated. Even if we count you [Erika], there's only 17 people. The easy solution is Shkannon or that Erika isn't a person so she wouldn't alter the count anyway (though it gets awkward explaining how the detective isn't real, unless we use multiple-personalities). As far as I can tell, there's no wordplay tricks here. Either we have:

17 + 0 = 17
or
16 + 1 = 17

Nothing more, nothing less.[/spoiler]

Edit: Not to take away from the theory or anything, as it is well constructed, but just that it's ultimately short-sighted in limiting itself in answering the "why" only without trying to prove the "how." If that was all it took, we would've ended Umineko in Game 5, or earlier, with ambiguous Blue Truths utilizing Devil's Proof.

[Sampson]

You say that like I made the theory myself...

But yes, you need to limit the suspects with the howdunnit, and choose the most reasonable with the whydunnit.

[spoiler]Actually, it's probably not that hard to explain the howdunnit for the George theory anyway since it involves manipulating Shannon, one of the most popular suspects. Really, all he needs to do is pick whatever howdunnit theory for Shannon he likes the most and say that George made her do it.[/spoiler]

[scy]

I figured that since you linked it that you liked the theory. Other than that, just a general critique of it.

I believe the inverse ordering; "Whydunnit" lets you find those with the desire to do it (initial suspect pool), the "Howdunnit" lets you weed out those that could not have done it (limit suspect pool), and then you just need the proof that combines the two for the "dunnit."

[spoiler]I don't think there's a Shannon mastermind/culprit/etc. theory that does explain every Game. And, most of her solutions involve her being the mastermind ordering everyone else and we're led down this weird chain of command if we involve George. Especially when we consider adding George on top of someone with an existing motive, we must begin to question the point of adding George anyway considering that adding him explains nothing at all (Occam's Razor). No, merely attaching Shannon mastermind to George mastermind doesn't solve anything besides adding an extra layer of complexity that offers no additional explanatory power.

I don't think there's a mastermind that is completely detached from the killings. It's an impossible to find solution with little-to-no proof to pin things on a mastermind that merely orders people around. This mastermind _must_ take an active role in _something_ so there's proof to connect them to the murders. If they're merely the general ordering the troops, that level of detachment AND still being Beatrice makes little sense.

Though, I wager the paying of people in Game 4 may be that proof necessary for a murderless-mastermind.[/spoiler]

[Sampson]

I linked the theory because I thought it was interesting.

Alternatively, for the Game 6 end riddle,
[spoiler]I guess it's possible that someone wasn't on the island to begin with for the game, but that's pretty unlikely. They'd have to be one of the people supposedly in the first bedroom, though.[/spoiler]

And something I noticed in Game 5:
[spoiler]Battler lies about seeing Kinzo, but he was being controlled by Bern at the time. Further proof that nobody (except Lambda, probably) is safe from her trolling. Not even Erika.[/spoiler]

[Riseatrance]

I interrupt your daily dose of [s]skycats[/s] [s]seagulls[/s] Umineco discussion for this important announcement.

SonoHana 8 is so cute and kawaii :3c

[Isabelyes]

Sorry for interrupting you all,
but in the two weeks I've been on vacation,
I've watched the whole first season of Higurashi,
and also watched the first five of Higurashi Kai.

Kai episode 2 is hilarious. ^^

anyway, Scy, is the VN worth it after watching the anime?

[scy]

Yes, because the Higurashi anime pretty much fucks up the feel of Higurashi.

[spoiler]Notably, the lack of Ending Reel messes with some of the mystery ("Huh what why does the entire village die in Game 1?"), some of the intrigue is lost, and they mess with deaths (despite how the anime wants to portray it, Watanagashi-hen and Meakashi-hen are completely different and separate arcs).[/spoiler]

That said, I have no idea the quality of the English Higurashi VN; fan translation projects haven't done all of the games so ...

[Isabelyes]

[noodles]

[Isabelyes]

Everything ablut his post strongly implies that he can moonrune.

My conclusion:
He. Can. Moonrune.

[scy]